On the campaign trail, Donald Trump promised that, if elected, “On day one, I will launch the largest deportation program of criminals in the history of America.” Trump’s administration has wasted no time since re-entering the White House on Monday, and communities around the US are currently bracing for a wave of ICE raids. In plans that were publicly leaked ahead of Trump’s inauguration, the city of Chicago was identified as a key target for immigration raids, putting immigrant residents and their neighbors on high alert. To discuss the impending threat to Chicago and cities around the country, and how communities can fight back, The Real News speaks with Moises Zavala, Workplace Justice Campaigns Organizer for Arise Chicago, and Natascha Elena Uhlmann, a writer for Labor Notes and immigrant rights activist from Sonora, Mexico.Link to article by Natascha Elena Ulmann and Sarah Lazare. Studio: David Hebden, Adam Coley, Cameron Granadino Post-Production: David HebdenProduced by: Stephen Janis and Taya GrahamWritten by: Stephen Janis Transcript The following is a rushed transcript and may contain errors. A proofread version will be made available as soon as possible. Taya Graham: Hello, my name is Taya Graham and welcome to a special emergency report created to help those who are immigrants or might be helping innocent people who happen to be immigrants in our country. And it’s no small matter. We’re tackling one of the most urgent human rights issues of our time, the weaponization of immigrant officers and law enforcement officers against working people, and it’s under the guise of law and order. This new administration has revived and expanded policies that threaten to tear families apart, destabilize communities, and target some of the most vulnerable people among us. And yet, amid the fear and uncertainty, there is resistance, resistance from those who refuse to let cruelty and chaos define our workplaces and our neighborhoods. Today we’ll be speaking with organizers and advocates and reporters who are pushing back creating sanctuary in unexpected places and proving that solidarity is our strongest shield. From teachers standing up for their immigrant students to unions rewriting the rules of what it means to protect workers, these are the people finding innovative, compassionate ways to challenge the unchecked power of ICE. And leaked plans show that ICE will be heading into Chicago, and we will be directly speaking to the organizers on the ground, and we’ll try to get for you the most current updates on the situation. We’ll also explore how deportations are not just acts of cruelty, but tools of economic control throwing lives into disarray, creating fear, and reinforcing inequality. But for those who might think, “Well, this doesn’t affect my life,” we’ll also explain the economic disruption that will occur across the board for those of us understandably worried about the cost of groceries and other goods. And there is solid data that shows that when President Obama deported a record 3 million people, it did not equate to 3 million jobs for Americans or proportionately higher wages. In fact, in President Trump’s first term, he only deported 1.9 million people, and I was somewhat surprised to discover that Biden deported even more than both Trump and President Obama. Although allegedly this was because more people entered the country during his tenure, it is interesting to note that both Democrats and Republicans have engaged in mass deportations, but the type of deportation policies that are currently being proposed can target people here legally under temporary protected status, children born in the U.S. to noncitizens, or people without criminal records who’ve been working here for decades who might’ve had trouble renewing a work visa or have been waiting years for the asylum process to be finalized. So, to get a better understanding of what our country is doing, let’s dive into the policies that make this possible and, more importantly, the people and movements fighting back. Because while this is a time of fear, it is also a time when we can show our humanity, our compassion, and our resourcefulness, and to demonstrate the power of collective action. I’m fortunate to be joined by senior investigative reporter Stephen Janis to help me break down this difficult topic. Stephen Janis: Absolutely. Glad to be here. Taya Graham: Stephen, thank you so much for joining me. Stephen Janis: You’re welcome. Taya Graham: First, can you give me just a brief overview of what the Trump administration has been doing? Stephen Janis: I mean, it’s so complex and so expansive and sprawling, it’s difficult to connect all the dots, and we’ll be talking to our guests about this. But for example, he wants to revoke birthright citizenship for children who are born to people who are not here, I guess, legally, from his perspective. Another thing he wants to do is deputize, as we were saying before the show, all sorts of law enforcement agents to be able to deport people. So he’s ratcheting that up. He’s created a national emergency at the border, he has mobilized the military to the border, and he has issued an executive order to conduct emergency raids and to deport people kind of on the spot. I don’t know if it’s the mass deportation, but it’s sprawling. It’s like in every aspect… Oh, and even more importantly and even more astounding, it used to be you can’t grab a person at a church or a school. We’re not going to have people storming in there with jackets. Well, guess what? That’s absolutely on the table now, that people can go into a school or a church or something and just snatch up people. It’s scary really, and it is an expansion of law enforcement I think that’s unprecedented in our recent history. But we’ve seen some of this before in the history of this country. But it is so sprawling and so expansive and so permeates every part of life, I think it’s going to change a lot for people who thought they might’ve been voting for Trump, and they’re going to see up front how cruel this can be. Taya Graham: Absolutely. We want to get started as soon as possible. We are joined by two guests- Stephen Janis: Absolutely. Taya Graham: … to help us understand who is at risk and what we can do to help. First, we have Natascha Uhlmann, staff writer for Labor Notes and an organizer. Her reporting covers Unite Here, farm workers, immigrant workers, and Mexico’s growing independent labor movement. And she’s already active in cross-border solidarity. In fact, she’s the editor and translator of former Mexican President Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador’s book, A New Hope for Mexico. Natascha is a member of Emergency Workplace Organizing Committee, and she’s the author of Abolish ICE. Natascha, thank you so much for joining us. Natascha Uhlmann: Thank you so much for having me. Taya Graham: And next we have Moises Zavala. He is an accomplished union organizer with over 25 years of experience. He has developed strategic plans to organize workers for union membership. He trains junior organizers. He serves on the local 881 UFCW executive board, and he’s an organizer at Arise, a faith-based labor movement where he helps workers to learn their rights and how to enforce them, including through making collective demands and building workplace committees. Moises, thank you so much for being here. We really do appreciate it. Moises Zavala: Thank you for having me. Taya Graham: So let me turn to you first, Moises. Just tell me a little bit about your organization, Arise that you work for, because it’s a faith-based organization, but also tell us what your concerns are for the people who are at the risk of deportation. And I just want to mention, we heard there might be an update on some of the raids across the country, so if you want to step in and speak about that first, please feel free. Moises Zavala: Sure. First of all, Arise Chicago is a worker center, not for profit, and what we do here is we support workers that are non-union to organize and protect their rights, organized collectively to improve their working conditions. We have been very involved in creating a rapid response to the problem that we have now of these mass deportations. What we did to create this rapid response was to have our members and community be ready for this. How? By creating trainings with our members and in the community of what to expect and how to be ready for this. Because when a worker is detained by ICE or there is a raid, people get paralyzed because of fear, because of the shock, and it is very hard then to be able to fight that deportation and provide to an attorney what they need to defend these workers. We have created an organizing toolbox for the community and for our members so they could be ready, such as what are the documents that they need to have with themselves at all times? What happens if there is a raid or they’re detained? Who is going to pick up their children? Who is going to take care of their last paycheck or be able to go into their bank accounts and be able to provide for the children or the family that’s left behind? If the children are sick, who is going to know what kind of medication the children have to take or what are the illnesses? So there’s a huge area of readiness that our members and community have been developing now in case the worst happens. If the worst does not happen, then our community is one step ahead. Stephen Janis: Aren’t they going to classify family members who are actually citizens as collaterals or something? Taya and I were hearing about as we were driving into work to do this show. Do you know anything about that and what that means for people who have families? Moises Zavala: All I could say is that from the looks of things, it sounds like ICE will pick up anybody that they run into. They have a list of names that they are looking for, but clearly that’s not going to stop from asking others, say, in a household or in a facility where people are working if they have documentation or not. Stephen Janis: Okay. Yeah, go ahead. I’m sorry. Taya Graham: No, I just thought it was really interesting because I believe Tom Homan had been saying that if people who we would say are at risk for deportation don’t voluntarily leave on their own, he was basically saying people are concerned that families will be separated. He said, “We’ll take the family with them.” Stephen Janis: Yeah, the whole family. They’re not going to separate. Yeah. Taya Graham: Right, and people were referring to families being deported as collateral- Stephen Janis: Right, I just said that. Taya Graham: … damage in the war. So that was really disturbing. Stephen Janis: Natascha, I want to ask you, your work is amazing on all this. We were reviewing it. And how historic is this? And we know the first couple raid has happened across the country, about 400 or 500 people. First, what do you know about this and how unprecedented is this effort by the Trump administration historically speaking? Natascha Uhlmann: Yeah, I mean, we’re definitely seeing an escalation. Some employers are already instituting non-mandated employment authorization checks. 100 custodial and kitchen workers at New York City’s Tin Building were fired after building management carried one of these out. They’re effectively called silent raids, and they’re every bit as damaging as the more visible raids that tend to get more publicity. So a lot of this stuff can happen sort of quietly too. Stephen Janis: What do you mean by silent raids, so people understand? I didn’t know exactly what that meant, so can you just give us a description of what a silent raid is? Natascha Uhlmann: Yeah, absolutely. So basically your employer can, in a way that it is not mandated to do, say, “I want to check that you’re authorized to work here,” even if you’ve been working here for a year, for 10 years. And it’s a way of clearing out if you are knowingly hiring undocumented workers. It’s every bit is damaging to get rid of them, but in a way that often just goes unnoticed because it’s not the sort of showy ICE bursting through the door, right? Stephen Janis: That’s really interesting. That’s horrifying too. And do you know anything about the raids that have occurred with 400 or 500 people in Illinois and Maryland and a couple other states, Utah? I mean, has anyone said anything to you about these? Natascha Uhlmann: So it’s really a rapidly developing situation, but I think a few things are clear. The first is that bosses are absolutely going to abuse this atmosphere of fear and uncertainty, and the second is that ICE and Border Patrol are going to throw a lot of things at the wall and see what sticks. And we’re going to need to do the same, right? Experiment with tactics, see what sticks, but always with an eye to building power in a strategic way. Taya Graham: Let me ask you, Moises, something. When you’re speaking to immigrants in your community, what are their fears and what are they trying to do to address them? I know you’re doing organizing, I know you’re trying to prepare people, but what are their fears at heart? Moises Zavala: The fear is the unknown. What’s going to happen? How is it going to happen? And we don’t have those answers, but what we do have is the ability to organize. And more than ever, we are sharing with our members that this is the time to organize with their coworkers, with their community, with their churches, the schools where the children go, to really solidify that network that we have and use it to organize support because this is not the first time that working families are attacked in this fashion. It’s happened before, and in the past, workers and communities organized very sophisticatedly to be able to win those types of oppressions, and we have to do the same thing. We have to continue that effort of unity, of organizing, and information so that people do not feel or do not have that fear that is going to paralyze them. We don’t have all the answers, but what we do know is that people want to live in peace and people can organize, and that is the avenue in which our members are taking to be able to have some stability in their lives at this moment. Stephen Janis: Natascha, one of the executive orders was getting rid of the birthright citizenship. How destructive do you think this will be? Do you think it will stick? Do you think the Trump administration will be able to make this stick? It really is contradicting the Constitution. But nevertheless, how destructive is this to families, and what are your concerns about that? Natascha Uhlmann: Yeah, absolutely. First, can I say, can I jump in on the fear question after this? Stephen Janis: Absolutely. Taya Graham: Oh, please do. Stephen Janis: You can jump in now. If you want to start with that, go ahead. Taya Graham: Yes. Natascha Uhlmann: Yeah, thank you so much. Stephen Janis: Absolutely. Natascha Uhlmann: Yeah. On the topic of fear, I mean this is without question a scary moment, but it is really essential that we don’t do the right’s work for them. They want people to be afraid. They want to project way more strength than they have in hopes that people will self-deport or remove themselves from public life. I am seeing a lot of bad actors who are seizing on this moment to spread terror. I heard from one organizer that a photo circulating spreading panic of an ICE van was actually photoshopped. And I’ve also seen someone screencap a photo from an ICE raid in 2018 and post it and say it was this week. So a lot of organizers I talk to right now are saying, “Spread power, not panic.” If you’re sharing information about a raid, verify it first. It can be tempting to just want to get that info out there, and I certainly feel that urge, but it’s really important not to play into the right’s hands and not to spread fear and uncertainty. Stephen Janis: Do you have any sense of who is spreading this fear and why they would want to do that? Are they trying to exploit workers, or is there some motivation behind that? Just curious. Natascha Uhlmann: I mean, it’s all very developing, so I can’t- Stephen Janis: I know. Totally understand. It just struck me like, wow, what a horrible thing to do to people. What’s your motive there? Natascha Uhlmann: I think just abject cruelty. I mean, I certainly do think bosses are very much prepared to take advantage of this moment, no question, but I can go back to the birthright question now. Stephen Janis: Yeah, sure. Of course. Of course. Absolutely. Natascha Uhlmann: Cool. Yeah, it’s absolutely heinous, and it’s just a complete mess because where do you draw the line? Right? Babies born today, a year ago, 10 years ago? And also he’s claimed that the U.S. is the only country that offers birthright is just actually factually wrong. Right? Canada, Mexico, for starters, our literal backyard, Belize, Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, this is not an uncommon practice. Stephen Janis: Wow. Taya Graham: And just to make this clear, because one of the things that was mentioned in the inauguration speech was the idea that the people who are in this country that are immigrants are somehow criminals, and I don’t think anyone would argue that if someone is engaged in transporting narcotics or human trafficking, no matter what your status is, you’re committing a crime. But we’re hearing that there’s so many people like clergy and teachers and employers, they’re worried about protecting community members that are valued hard-working people and even children. I was hoping, and this is either for you, Moises, or for you, Natascha, maybe you can just tell us a little bit about the people at risk. Describe who they are, help put a face to it so people understand who you’re trying to protect. Moises Zavala: It’s everyday people. Everyday people are at risk. Students, restaurant workers, grocery workers, factory workers, everybody’s at risk because we don’t carry an ID that says I’m a U.S. citizen, I’m a permanent resident, I’m undocumented. Hey, if you look Mexican, we’re going to have to pull you over. Show me some papers. That’s the kind of world in which we live in right now. If it was that simple where, “Hey, here’s a list. These are people that you have to go and find,” that’s one thing, but that’s not what we’re hearing. So again, we’re living in a moment where we have to inform faster than before, broader than before, and really organize to be able to push back to be able to make sure that workers know what their rights are. For example, if there is a raid or they get pulled over or they’re stopped on the street, what’s the first thing that we mentioned in our trainings? Remain silent. Remain silent. We have little cards that say, “I’m going to remain silent, and I want to speak to my attorney.” They look something like this where the work it can put in their pocket and show it to an ICE agent. So this is what we’re doing to be able to fight off this environment of fear. I mean, attacking a birthright citizenship, it’s just another way to create fear and to create anger and to try to point at people and wonder, hey, I wonder if he or she is a U.S. citizen. Well, let’s ask them. Right? I hope it doesn’t get to that point, but it sure as heck looks like it is. So we have to be ready for that. We have to push back. Stephen Janis: Natascha- Natascha Uhlmann: [inaudible 00:18:20]. Stephen Janis: Oh, go ahead. You go ahead. Absolutely. I don’t need to ask a question. Natascha Uhlmann: Great. I think Moises makes some excellent points. Just to add to that, there’s often this sort of outrage of, “Well, they broke the law to come here. Why didn’t they come the right way? Why didn’t they get in line?” Well, first of all, for many people, there just simply is no line to get into. But secondly, often the people who say this are often the same people who say things like, “I would do anything for my child. I would kill for my child.” And I think it’s really important to tap into that shared humanity. People are coming here because they have hopes and aspirations, and they want to give their kids something that they didn’t have. And you cannot tell me as a parent, if you could not feed your kid, you wouldn’t cross some damn line for them. I think these are the conversations that we need to be having. Stephen Janis: Yeah. I think- Moises Zavala: Another thing that I would add- Stephen Janis: Okay. Natascha Uhlmann: Sorry. Moises Zavala: Another thing that I would add when we talk about criminalizing undocumented workers is, well, what are we talking about? They just pardoned 1,500 criminals that attacked our capital. Stephen Janis: Oh, good point. Moises Zavala: And what is it? What are we talking about when we say criminals? Stephen Janis: Well, one of the things, and I wanted both of you, if you want to jump in on understanding, have they canceled the ability to ask or seek asylum, speaking of cruelty? I think that was in part of the executive orders. Is that playing out? Is that correct? Moises Zavala: I believe that’s what it was. Stephen Janis: Yeah. Yeah, because seeking a asylum is an important part of that process you were talking about for people trying to come here, right? If that goes away, what happens? Moises Zavala: People continue to see the United States as a place of hope, and people will continue, like Natascha mentioned, they will continue to walk the miles and miles for their children. I don’t think it’s fun to be walking through the desert or through a jungle. These are needs. But there are different ways to welcome people into this country, but the way this new administration is going about it, it’s simply just to create chaos and create fear. Taya Graham: I think you brought up such a good point that these people are doing what any American would say they would do for their family, which is I would do anything for my child. I think you brought up such a great point, both of you. And I hate to bring up something that stokes more fear, but there have already been instances of anti-immigrant violence. I mean, back in December, there were two teenagers in New York. They were asked by a group of men if they spoke English. When they said no, they didn’t speak English, they were both stabbed and one died. Of course, in Springfield, Ohio, after Haitians were falsely accused of being in the U.S. illegally and harming pets and spreading disease, there were marches by white supremacists, and there were 30 bomb threats in one week. So I have to ask you both, are there any concerns that there could be vigilante actions against the immigrant community? Moises Zavala: Look, it could very well be, but I think it’s also on all of us to play a role in making sure that this changes. It’s not just for immigrant rights organizations like ours to be fighting this off. We will. That’s what we do. But it’s also the participation of the rest of our communities to stand up and to fight against this kind of attacks on all of us. Natascha Uhlmann: Yeah, I would just add, I think a lot of this work will come down to talking to people who don’t agree with you, building bonds of trust and solidarity, and then you can have that conversation, right? It’s not the undocumented worker making five bucks an hour under the table who’s getting the better end of the deal, right? He didn’t choose that. The boss did. And if there wasn’t some arbitrary designation of immigration status, the boss couldn’t get away with paying him five bucks an hour. It is the vulnerability of immigration status itself that creates the conditions where a boss can undercut you. I just wanted to flag, we’ve got a great piece in Labor Notes called Worker Solidarity Is the Best Strategy to Defeat Rising Fascism, and it talks about exactly that. It is in the boss’s interest to have us at each other’s throats, keep us divided, see each other as a threat. I think it is going to take talking to people who don’t agree with us, not violent people like that, but I think it’s what it’s going to have to look like. Stephen Janis: One thing I want to note, I think what happened with the asylum process is now people have to remain in Mexico, I believe. Just a little correction there or kind of clarification. But yeah, I mean, as a reporter, is there any story that stands out to you or something that sort of shows the cruelty and the inhumanity of this or that has affected you in any way? Natascha Uhlmann: I think there’s so many, but unfortunately, they largely precede Trump, right? Even under Obama we had kids in deportation hearings, and I remember reading their feet couldn’t even touch the floor is how little they were. They didn’t know their last name is how little they were. So unfortunately, this is a bipartisan affair, and I think that it’s just a total abdication of leadership on behalf of the Dems, and that handed us Trump. If you’re going to condemn Trump’s rhetoric and fall all over yourselves to top it in the support for the Laken Riley Act… I don’t know. It’s not only morally reprehensible, but yeah, it’s a total abdication of leadership, and it’s just bad politics. You want to tell us come election time that Trump’s a fascist, that this is the most important election of our lives. But then if you’re going to fall right into place and advance his agenda, what is the political calculus? Right. Stephen Janis: That’s a great point. Taya Graham: I actually have a dozen more questions I want to ask, but I want to make sure that I ask the most important question, and this is for people who want to take action but maybe let’s say they aren’t directly involved in a union, what are some ways they can support immigrant workers and help create sanctuary workspaces or just safe spaces in their own communities? And I’ll go to you first Moises and then to you Natascha. Moises Zavala: A number of things that they can do. One is they can reach out to a church in their community, find out if their church is doing any work or is willing to do some work and take on some of the responsibilities to create that support base in the community. Talk to the schools. Obviously, contact a worker center like us. We’d be more than happy to share the work in supporting our community. So there’s a range of ways that they can support. They can contact their aldermen, their elected officials, find out what is it that they’re doing. If it’s obviously a state like in Illinois, what are they doing and how can they participate to strengthen the work that those elected officials are doing? So thank you for that question. That is what we need to be thinking about. How can we incorporate and encourage others to have a role in this support base for these workers? Natascha Uhlmann: Yeah, there’s a lot of good language you can include in your collective bargaining agreements. The Chicago Teachers Union has some good language about how you don’t let ICE through the door unless they got a signed warrant. But a teacher I spoke with for a recent story with Sarah Lazar, teacher’s name was Catherine Zamarrón, she made a really important point that good contract language is only useful if people know their contract. Someone’s going to have to be the person when ICE is at the door that says, “Hey, don’t open that door. We don’t have to let them in.” So this piece I referenced at Labor Notes and Workday, Sarah Lazar and I collected the best collective bargaining agreement language that we found with these sorts of protections, protections against retaliation against nonmandated audits, stuff you’re going to want in your contract. So you can find that on both the Labor Notes and Workday Magazine websites. But in addition, I think worker centers and community groups also have a really important role to play. There’s all the work Arise is doing, which has been integral. Escucha Mi Voz Iowa faith-based community org has committed to having 6,000 one-on-one conversations with church members in the area. And interestingly, they likened it to how organizers build a union. Talking to people who don’t agree, it’s going to be a slow process of building trust, of being in dialogue. It’s going to be exceptionally frustrating, but you got to bring in people who don’t agree or we’re just going to be talking to each other. And finally, I would just point to there are very practical things you can do in your community. I spoke with one organizer who turns out a crowd when a community member needs to go to an ICE check-in because ICE will generally not make detentions during public events as a safety precaution for their agents. So there’s a lot of stuff you can do. If you’re not in a union organized, reach out to the one of the incredible worker centers supporting these organizing efforts or to EWOC, the Emergency Workplace Organizing Committee. But I think everyone has a role to play, and it’s going to take all of us. Taya Graham: Well, you know what? We’re going to make a point of putting in our YouTube description perhaps a link to that article that you wrote with Sarah Lazar. I think you might also have some tips. That would be great. I think the same with you, Moises. At the beginning, you held up what looked like a little pamphlet or handbook. Perhaps we could post a link to that as well so that people can see for themselves things that they can do if they want to help protect their fellow community members. I want to thank you both so much for joining us for this emergency livestream. We know we grabbed you last minute and we know you both have a lot of important work to do, so we want to thank you so much for your time. I feel like you want to add one thing, Moises? Moises Zavala: Yes, one thing, very important, despite the fear that is being thrown at us, I think that it is these moments that draw out the best in us to organize, to change, and to create power. And we just got to remember that because our communities have done that in the past, and we need to continue to do it today and teach it for the future. Taya Graham: I’m so glad that you ended us on such a positive note, to not give into fear, but that this is a time where we can join together to do something positive. Thank you both again for your time. Stephen Janis: Yes, thank you. Taya Graham: We really appreciate you. Natascha Uhlmann: Thank you so much. Moises Zavala: Thank you. Taya Graham: Take care. Once again, I want to thank our guests, Moises Zavala from Arise and Natascha Uhlmann of Labor Notes for discussing this human rights issue with us. Stephen Janis: And get her book Abolish Ice. Taya Graham: Yes, that’s right. Thank you. Stephen Janis: A great book. Taya Graham: But most importantly, we want to thank you for not only working in your communities to provide protection, but teaching us how we can help. We appreciate your time and your work, and we want to thank you again for joining us. And we also want to thank everyone for watching and taking the time to listen and taking the time to care. Our immigrant neighbors aren’t our enemies. They’re our friends, our co-workers, and they’re even our family. Let’s keep sharing the things that make our country truly great, being open, being innovative, being welcoming, and being compassionate, and being a place where anyone who works hard at least has a chance at the American dream. Thank you so much for joining us.