President Biden’s decision to pardon his son, Hunter Biden, has drawn criticism from across the political spectrum. Among these critics are opponents of the War on Drugs and mass incarceration, which President Biden played a personal role in architecting throughout his political career. Jason Ortiz, Director of Strategic Initiatives at the Last Prisoner Project, joins Rattling the Bars to discuss Hunter Biden’s pardon and what it means for Biden’s legacy. Studio / Post-Production: Cameron Granadino Transcript The following is a rushed transcript and may contain errors. A proofread version will be made available as soon as possible. Mansa Musa: President Biden recently gave his son, Hunter Biden, an unconditional pardon. Hunter was convicted on tax evasion and federal gun charges. He was due to be sentenced this month. In pardoning his son, the president stated that he believes in the justice system, but also believes that raw politics has affected this process, and it led to a miscarriage of justice. His decision to pardon his son has created a Richter magnitude scale response from every sector of society. President Donald Trump and his treasonous cohorts, former prosecutors, convicted police, just to name a few. Everyone has an opinion on this decision, but the voices that are missing are those who are enslaved in the prison industrial complex. The people sitting in prison on outdated marijuana charges, people who lost their freedom, because of racist three strike laws, or mandatory minimum sentence. These are the real victims of the raw politics that President Biden spoke about. Here to help us unpack President Biden’s decision to pardon his son and the impact of that decision is Jason Ortiz from The Last Prisoner Project. Jason, introduce yourself to the Rattling The Bars audience. Jason Ortiz: Sure. My name is Jason Ortiz. I’m the director of strategic initiatives for The Last Prisoner Project, which is a nonprofit organization that helps folks that are currently incarcerated for cannabis crimes achieve their freedom, get reunited with their families, and become full members of society. Mansa Musa: Welcome to Rattling The Bars, Jason. Jason Ortiz: Thank you. Welcome to have me. I’m really excited that you’re having me here today. Mansa Musa: Okay. So, we recently recognized that President Biden used his authority to pardon his son Hunter Biden from the conviction that he got for tax evasion, gun violation, among other charges. And in pardoning him, and this is what we want to hone in on this interview, in pardoning, he said that he believed in the justice system, and he believed that the American people when you tell them the truth, they will be fair. But he also believed that the raw politics, the decision to indict his son, and the raw politics to convict his son is the reason why his son was convicted. Not that he was guilty of anything. That wasn’t the issue. He was guilty. It was just that the raw politics superseded his guilt, and, therefore, he should not have been found guilty, but for raw politics. Okay. So, let’s look at this decision that President Biden made. Talk about … Because you recently was interviewed on Democracy Now by Amy Goodman, and in your response to this decision, you made the observation about President Biden being instrumental in creating an atmosphere where the prison industrial complex blew up to what we know it to be now. Talk about that, and why you think that this decision should have a better impact than it is in terms of everybody coming out of the closet, war criminals, treasonous, convicted felons, in the sense of Donald Trump and his cohort. Talk about that. Jason Ortiz: When we heard that President Biden was going to use his pardon power to pardon his son for his various convictions, we were understanding of why a president and a father would want to help their sons avoid prison time. And so, we have seen this as an affirmation that the president and his administration understand that while some folks have committed crimes in the past, some of their sentences are egregious and politically motivated. That is true for all of the 3000 federal cannabis prisoners who are currently serving decades, or life sentences in prison for cannabis crimes that are now legal for half the states across the country, and producing tax revenue. We have thousands of cannabis businesses that are producing tax revenues for states and municipalities across the country as there are people currently incarcerated watching this all unfold, and President Biden, himself, was one of the chief architects of the 1994 crime bill- Mansa Musa: Right. Jason Ortiz: … which enhanced all kinds of sentences, both for cannabis, other drugs, other crimes, and it was on the floor of the Senate at the time, he was a Senator at the time, making the argument that there were these big, bad drug dealers out there that were hurting all these folks, and so, we should lock them up forever. Right? That was where the whole Corn Pop meme came from with Joe Biden, and he was very proud at the time to be a drug warrior, and push to lock up thousands, if not millions, of Black and brown people across the country while, at the same time, fully aware that under Nixon, when the War On Drugs was declared- Mansa Musa: Right. Jason Ortiz: … the Controlled Substance Act was created, his office was very explicit that they wanted to disrupt Black and brown communities, and the anti-war community, and used the War On Drugs to have a reason to demonize and vilify folks on the evening news, to go into different organizations, and break up their leadership, and incarcerate folks, and much worse. There were plenty of political organizers in that time that were murdered by the State. Mansa Musa: Right. Jason Ortiz: And so, this was the climate that Joe Biden gets brought up in as a House member, and then eventually a Senator, and then in the ’90s as a Senator, he becomes the architect of the crime bill. So, all of the really long sentences we’re dealing now are in part due to that bill. And so, we have folks like Edwin Ruiz. Edwin is a resident of Texas, he has kids, and he was arrested in the ’90s for a trafficking charge, so, selling weed, moving weed from one person to another, and he got 40 years for that offense. Mansa Musa: Right. Jason Ortiz: 40 years in the ’90s. Right? So, 1997. He served 27 years already of that term. And so, these are folks that are serving decades, and have already served decades for activity that’s legal in the District of Columbia where President Biden lives. Right? Mansa Musa: Right. Right. Jason Ortiz: It’s a clear hypocrisy. They’re fully aware that the War On Drugs was always racially and politically motivated, and yet until this day, he refuses to use his pardon power, his presidential authority, to help undo that damage where he’s more than happy to do it for his son, and fully understand why parents across the country would not want their sons and daughters in prison either. So, he still has the opportunity to make moves and use his pardon authority to commute the sentences. That’s specifically what we’re asking the president to do is commute the sentences of all the folks that are currently incarcerated to time served. So, that they would be let out. Mansa Musa: Yeah. And you know what? I like that observation in terms of, like, marijuana laws. As we’ll go into the political prisoner spectrum as well, but as a marijuana law, it is, like, ironic that you legalize marijuana that there’s nowhere in this country right now that a person cannot light a joint up. Literally, there’s nowhere in this country that a person cannot … You can go to a dispensary, and buy. There’s nowhere in this country, there’s very few places where … It’s, like, maybe regulated, but you can have access to it, and then a person find themselves in prison for two decades, and with no hope of getting out under this law that this very president is responsible for it being, and then he turn around and say, oh, raw politics is the reason why his son … Okay, but the raw politics, the reality behind the raw politics is that you created this situation that these people find themselves in. And I look at it like Leonard Peltier. Jason Ortiz: Yeah. Mansa Musa: Peltier is innocent. Jason Ortiz: Absolutely. Mansa Musa: He is innocent of every crime. Mumia Abu-Jamal, he’s innocent. You got political prisoners that’s innocent. You have the Treasury Committee came out and say in … When they did a study on the FBI’s practice, and the counterintelligence program, they noted that who had ratted them up, was setting people up, only because of their political views, and locking people up, and kill people, the raw politics behind it was that he was representing the corporate America, and the system that by any means was designed to destroy any political opposition. But talk about the impact that this decision will have, if you can speak to this, the impact that President Biden’s decision to pardon his son will have overall. Jason Ortiz: Overall, it is highlighting the idea of using a presidential pardon to undo damage done by politically motivated sentencing. Right? So, the president has affirmed that sometimes the sentences people get are not there, because of they’re a threat to society, or safety for anyone, that it’s all about the politics behind it, and that is very true about the 3000 federal cannabis prisoners who are also politically motivated prisoners, and the folks like Mumia and Leonard Peltier are also politically motivated arrests and convictions. And so, if he’s able to affirm that for his son, his administration has no excuse from applying that same logic to all the folks that are currently in prison, and using his presidential pardon authority to give them their freedom, and undo the damage that was done. So, while I am frustrated that the president is choosing to only use his power in this way, it is creating a national conversation around what is the right use of the presidential pardon, and how else can he use it to help more people? While we would like to see … I’m not opposed, I don’t feel like what he did to Hunter was wrong, it’s just incredibly hypocritical and frustrating- Mansa Musa: Right. Jason Ortiz: … that he’s not using it for lots of other folks, who want to expand the use of the presidential authority. His predecessor Trump also has used it in all kinds of wild ways. Right? So, there is really no limit on what we can do with the presidential pardon. The president could pardon all of these folks tomorrow, if he wanted to. And so, that means it’s a political decision by him, and his office to not do it so far. And that means on us, on the people. Right? We got to apply pressure, and we got to organize to push the government to do the right thing. They’ve already admitted that they can do it. They’ve already used the power the way they think makes sense. So, it’s on us to push and pressure them to use it in a way that we think makes sense. Mansa Musa: And I was listening to someone, [inaudible 00:10:32] talking heads on our network, and they started lining up, and taking the position that, “Okay. Everybody that was involved with trying to throw a coup, and was involved with the riot with President-Elect Trump, then president at that time, told them, “Go down to the Capitol and storm the Capitol, and reverse the democratic decision to elect Biden,” that they was saying, “Well, all of them should be pardoned,” that the police, the George Floyd, they should be pardoned, that everybody, former prosecutors that got caught with their hand in the till, they should be pardoned. What you think about that? Do you think they should have the same right under this concept as those that was politically motivated, or do you think it should be a more objective approach to this whole process? Jason Ortiz: So, I’ll just say clearly, though, the presidential pardon is a political tool. Right? And so, there is no limit to it. So, whether they can, or can’t use it, they definitely can do that. Now who should get a pardon? Right? Like, personally, I don’t think folks that committed a crime, and their sentence was just, it was fair what they were supposed to serve as far as time goes, that that is justification for a pardon. Right? The president gets to use it as he sees fit, however, these folks did commit a crime, and I don’t know exactly, if I would say their sentences are unjust- Mansa Musa: Right. Jason Ortiz: … for what they did, because what they did was a pretty serious offense. Right? Storming the Capitol, and trying to seize control of the government, you used the word treasonous earlier. Right? It’s about as close as we can get to treason as we’ve experienced in modern history. And so, there are times when the sentence is fitting the crime. Right? And so, trying to overthrow the government, that’s a pretty serious offense. Right? Now folks that have been participated in a lesser extent, or simply showed up to January 6, there’s always going to be a range of participation, and action, and folks should be held accountable to their specific actions. Mansa Musa: Right. Jason Ortiz: And so, folks that did really egregious things in the Capitol should be punished for that. Right? However, storming the Capitol is not a crime that is now decriminalized, and legal for millions of folks to participate in. Mansa Musa: Right. Right. Jason Ortiz: And that’s a very different- Mansa Musa: [inaudible 00:12:51]. Jason Ortiz: … situation. Mansa Musa: That’s right. Jason Ortiz: Right? That we have said as a society, some people can make millions of dollars selling weed, and these other folks got punished for that crime a long time ago. Nobody is now decriminalizing storming the Capitol. Right? Mansa Musa: Yeah. Right. Exactly. Jason Ortiz: And so, we’re saying society has changed since this happened. It was originally racist and politically motivated, but even on top of that, society has now said, “This is no longer a crime. We’re going to let folks operate cannabis businesses,” and that’s what I believe is the moral justification for using a pardon on cannabis prisoners, specifically. Right? There are lots of other reasons to use a pardon. Right? Some folks are innocent of their crimes, and their original arrest and conviction was politically motivated. Right? That is where a presidential pardon can come in, in that times have shifted, the new administration that is elected is there to push for the people that support the political movements that got folks elected. And so, that is another good justification for a pardon, because the person didn’t actually do the crime. The only reason they’re in there was politically motivated. So, it takes a political resolution to undo that process. Right? And so, I think that’s definitely what Leonard Peltier and Mumia fit into that category. Then there’s folks that maybe did commit the crime, but the sentence is just way more than the crime that they committed. Mansa Musa: Right. Right. Jason Ortiz: For example, folks that are on death row. Mansa Musa: Right. Jason Ortiz: Right? There are a number of folks on death row that should not be losing their life, because of the crime that they committed. Mansa Musa: Right. Jason Ortiz: And that is another space where the president can commute their sentence to life in prison, or time served, depending on the situation, and those are the folks that I think also they are not innocent, necessarily, although, some of them very much are, but the punishment did not fit the crime to have a life sentence. Like, to really put someone away for the rest of their life, it has to be a pretty egregious situation where they’re also a threat to society forever, and there’s very few situations I think that fit that mold, where someone should be in jail for 50, 75 years. Right? Mansa Musa: Right. Right. Jason Ortiz: But I do think death row and folks that are sentenced to death is particularly one that warrants presidential intervention, as we should just not be killing folks anymore using the State, and giving people death penalties, which sometimes people can get charges trumped-up, because of drug charges that add to different charges, and then they end up with life in sentence. [inaudible 00:15:08] is someone that was operating in a cannabis operation, and got charged with trafficking, and is serving a life sentence for a non-violent drug offense. Mansa Musa: Right. Jason Ortiz: And so, honestly, I don’t care how many pounds somebody was selling, nothing justifies a life sentence. Mansa Musa: Right. Jason Ortiz: Specifically, because he did way less than any cannabis company does on a monthly basis. Right? And so, the biggest difference I see between January 6th folks and our folks is the crimes that folks are currently incarcerated for are no longer crimes. Mansa Musa: And talk about- Jason Ortiz: And that’s a huge difference. Mansa Musa: Why do you think that in regard to this country’s attitude about recognizing cannabis laws and recognizing that because of the social trend, and attitudes has changed, why you think they still holding fast to this draconian position of, “Lock them up, throw away the key. It’s a crime. It’s a crime. It’s a crime. We’re not dealing with what type of crime, we’re dealing with it’s a crime, and, therefore, we saying a person that has been duly convicted should serve the time,” but at the same token, as you outlined, “I can leave from visiting somebody that got locked up for marijuana, and on my way out of town, go to a dispensary, and buy some marijuana”? Why you think this country’s attitude is so entrenched on just holding people to that standard? Jason Ortiz: Well, I think the United States has been addicted to punitive punishment for a very long time. Like, there have been folks that have always used ostracizing certain communities and making them the problem, or demonizing them. Right? We see it happen in many different communities over time. Immigrants are currently being demonized in a lot of ways, as folks want to lock them up, or deport them, but Black and brown folks, specifically, leftist organizers over the years have always been targeted, and using the legal system to not just disrupt those communities, but then profit off of those disruptions. Right? There are private prisons, even public prisons. Right? There’s billions of dollars in the prison industrial complex that uses our people first to arrest them, but then also uses them for things like labor, where- Mansa Musa: Yeah. Right. Jason Ortiz: … prison. Right? Like, we actually saw California had a ballot measure- Mansa Musa: Yup. Jason Ortiz: … to end prison labor, and it lost. Mansa Musa: Right. Right. Jason Ortiz: And so, that was a pretty heartbreaking moment to hear that that ballot measure lost, and it is pretty clear that right now the way the United States is structured, we are a military superpower, we’re a prison industrial superpower. We use violence and coercive force as our number one tactic in a lot of different ways, and a lot of different situations. And so, the longer that we are continuing with that addiction to punitive punishment and incarceration, the more damage we’re doing over time, and so, to undo that is a tremendous lift in the international collective consciousness. Mansa Musa: Right. Jason Ortiz: To shift people away from that addiction is tough. Right? And so, I think the drug policy movement has done a pretty good job in shifting public opinion of whether, or not people should be in jail moving forward, but what is really hard for, especially, white folks, or folks that have a significant amount of wealth is being able to address what happened in the past. Mansa Musa: Right. Jason Ortiz: And so, we haven’t been willing to do that part. We have gotten the public to say, “Okay. No more people going in prison,” and even that’s not really true, because we still arrest people and incarcerate people for selling weed. Right? We say that possession is okay. It’s perfectly okay if you buy from a dispensary, but if you buy it from your homey that you used to buy it from- Mansa Musa: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Jason Ortiz: … that’s still a crime. Mansa Musa: Right. Right. Right. Jason Ortiz: And it’s a felony for the guy selling it to you still. Mansa Musa: Right. Jason Ortiz: Right? And out of the 24 states and DC that have had some, kind of, real adult use legislation, zero actually let everybody out of prison when they did it. Zero. Right? So, there is this lack of historical understanding, and saying, “We’re going to address what happened in the past. We’re willing to move forward and act like it never happened, and not talk to anybody about it,” but we’re not going to actually address the very racist and politically motivated history of why it happened to begin with. And so, that’s actually where the equity movement started to come out in the mid-2010s up until now where I was part of a different organization then, The Minority Cannabis Business Association, where we were working with different states to help people figure out how do Black and brown people get a piece of the legal pie? Mansa Musa: Right. Right. Right. Jason Ortiz: Right? And in that equity space, we had three main pushes. So, one was helping folks achieve freedom, and things like reentry support, expungements, reducing sentences- Mansa Musa: Right. Jason Ortiz: … and that was the criminal justice part of it. Then there was the community investment part, because the other part of the War On Drugs was that the police disrupted the economics of communities of color, and removing people that were breadwinners and fathers and parents and putting them in prison. So, there should be very targeted investment to undo that damage as well, which where the State invest in community investment. And then third was economic opportunity in the cannabis industry itself. Mansa Musa: Right. Jason Ortiz: We found a lot of ways that folks are willing to talk about how everybody can make money off of selling cannabis, but when it came to the criminal justice side, we had to really fight for all the advances in those spaces, but this equity movement, which was, essentially, the movement to help undo the damage down by the War On Drugs did spread across the country. Now most of the states that have cannabis operation have some kind of equity program- Mansa Musa: Right. Jason Ortiz: … where there are set aside licenses, community investment, expungement support, all those kind of things, but even now they’re under assault. Right? There’s all kinds of governments that want to move that money somewhere else- Mansa Musa: Yeah. Right. Right. Jason Ortiz: … and so, it’s been an internal struggle. Right? But that being said, we are making a lot of progress. Like, things are moving. So, for example, Wes Moore, Governor- Mansa Musa: Right. Jason Ortiz: … Wes Moore- Mansa Musa: Right. Right. Right. Jason Ortiz: … from Maryland. Mansa Musa: Where we at. Jason Ortiz: Yeah. So, he pardoned 170,000 cannabis charges. I was there when he actually signed the paper. Right? Mansa Musa: Okay. Jason Ortiz: And so, we are seeing governors across the country pick up the mission to actually undo the damage done, and making some progress. That being said, that’s one governor out of 50 that has actually done anything real serious. And so, that’s an inspiration. We’re glad he did that. Right? Hopefully, he pushes on Biden for us to do more as well, but we still have a lot of work to do. So, it’s a long-term standing addiction to punitive punishments. Right? That we’re going to shame and make examples out of people, but, at the same time, I do think we are cracking the dam of the War On Drugs- Mansa Musa: Right. Right. Jason Ortiz: … and we will see it end in our lifetime, I do, and in your lifetime, and all of our lifetimes. Right? Like, we are winning the overall war, but it is something that has been built over 125 years, and ending that is not going to be an easy process, nor a quick one. But I do see us growing, and winning the fights every day. Mansa Musa: Okay. And as we conclude, tell our audience going forward what y’all be doing going forward, and how our audience can act with your project, or your former initiatives. Jason Ortiz: Sure. So, actually, we have until January 20th to push President Biden to use his pardon authority to commute the sentences of the cannabis prisoners. And so, folks can go to www.CannabisClemency.org, and we have a countdown clock there where you can actually send a letter to the president, and between now and January 20th, that is the number one priority is we have the opportunity to get folks out of prison with this one person making one decision will actually have huge impact. So, again, it’s www.cannabisclemency.org. You can go to www.LastPrisonerProject.org to see all the different campaigns we’re working on. If you’d like to write a letter to someone that’s currently incarcerated, we would love to have folks participating in our letter writing program. And then I always say to wrap up, if you know anyone in prison for cannabis crimes, please let them know about us, and let us know how we can get in touch with them, because we do want to be in touch with folks that are on the inside, helping them get resources. So, The Last Prisoner Project can provide legal support, funding in commissaries, and then also reentry funding when folks come out. So, that there’s actually a grant, and you can come out and get a car license, or a house, whatever you may need. So, help us get our message to the folks that- Mansa Musa: Yeah. Okay. Jason Ortiz: … are on the inside, and we would love to help as many people as we can. Mansa Musa: Thank you, Jason. You definitely rattled the bars today. Jason Ortiz: There you go. Mansa Musa: Yeah. Jason Ortiz: It’s an honor to be here with you, my man. Mansa Musa: Yeah. No doubt about it. We recognize that raw politics, this is a politically motivated … That’s all it is, and we recognize now based on your education of our audience, and the marijuana laws, that the hypocrisy of this country is that they’re big on saying things … Like Stevie Wonder say, “We all amazed, but not amused at all the things you say you do, but if you really want to know something, you haven’t done nothing.” And this is exactly what President Biden … This is your opportunity to cement your legacy, and in terms of, like, pardoning everyone that was convicted of this draconian marijuana law to pardon people that’s been convicted of a frame, like Mumia Abu-Jamal, Leonard Peltier, politically motivated, because of their politics. We ask that y’all continue to support Rattling The Bars, and The Real News, because it’s only from this platform that you get this kind of information that Jason Ortiz gave us from The Last Prisoner Project. We recognize that a person can come out and smoke a joint around the corner, and buy some weed, but the same person sitting back in the cell in Denver, Colorado, or Florida somewhere that’s been convicted of having four pounds, or 10 pounds of marijuana is sitting back wondering, “Why am I still sitting here when it’s illegal to sell this throughout this country?” So, we ask that you support this initiative to try to get the word out, and encourage President Biden to cement his legacy by being the architect of change, and not the architect of confusion and destruction. Thank you, Jason. Jason Ortiz: Thank you. Well-said, brother.