While Democrats are looking for scapegoats to blame for their losses on election day, Donald Trump is busy making cabinet and administration appointments. When it comes to US policy on issues ranging from the climate crisis to Israel’s ongoing genocide in Gaza, from public health policy to reproductive rights and labor rights and civil rights, from trade wars to mass deportations, one thing is clear: a lot is about to change. But between Trump’s own contradictory statements and a corporate, independent, and social media ecosystem overflowing with conjecture, misinformation, propaganda, and partisan hackery, it is difficult to know what exactly is coming, how we should be preparing for it, and how we can fight it. So what are we facing, really? How do we get ready for the fight ahead? What tools do we need to parse fact from fiction in this critical moment, when talk is everywhere but truth is in short supply? What lessons from the last Trump administration can we use to effectively navigate the very different political terrain we’re on and media ecosystem we’re in today? In this livestream, we dug into these questions (and answered yours!) with independent media makers Abby Martin of Empire Files, Francesca Fiorentini of “The Bitchuation Room” podcast, and Kat Abughazaleh of Mother Jones. Studio: David Hebden, Cameron Granadino, Adam ColeyProduction: Maximillian Alvarez Transcript The following is a rushed transcript and may contain errors. A proofread version will be made available as soon as possible. Maximillian Alvarez: Donald Trump is headed back to the White House in two months, and with the news this week that the GOP has won a majority in the House of Representatives, the fully MAGAfied Republican Party will effectively control all three branches of government: the executive, the legislature, and the judiciary. The election was just over a week ago, and since then, Democrats have been busy pointing fingers at each other and looking for scapegoats to blame for their losses. Meanwhile, Donald Trump is busy making cabinet appointments and administration appointments. Trump is already sending shockwaves with jaw dropping picks, tapping Florida Congressman Matt Gaetz for attorney general, for instance; Thomas Holman, an Obama-era appointee to ICE, who was one of the architects of Trump’s zero tolerance policy for border czar; Florida Senator and foreign policy hawk Marco Rubio has been tapped as secretary of state. And the richest man in the world, Elon Musk, and billionaire entrepreneur Vivek Ramaswamy, are going to head up a new Department of Government Efficiency. Listen, when it comes to US policy on issues ranging from climate change to Israel’s ongoing genocide in Gaza, from public health and social security to reproductive rights and labor rights and civil rights, from trade wars and tax codes to mass deportations, one thing is clear: a lot is about to change. But between Trump’s own babbling contradictory statements and a corporate, independent, and social media ecosystem that is just overflowing with conjecture, doomerism, misinformation, propaganda, and partisan hackery, it can be really difficult to know just what exactly is coming down the pike, how we should be preparing for it, and how we can fight it. So what are we facing really? How do we get ready for what’s coming? What tools do we need to parse fact from fiction in this critical moment when talk is everywhere but truth is in short supply? There’s a lot of sound and fury out there, and it’s only going to get louder and more confusing as we rumble onward into the dark unknown of the next four years. And we need to get our heads and hearts right for the fight ahead. We need to have a clear-eyed understanding of the political terrain that we’re actually on and the media ecosystem that we’re operating in, both of which are decidedly different today compared to what they were in 2016 when Trump was first elected. And that is exactly why I could not be more excited for today’s livestream, where we’re going to talk to three brilliant independent media makers who have so much to teach us about how to fight and win on that terrain. I’m truly honored to have joining us on the stream today the one and only Abby Martin, independent journalist host of the Empire Files, a vital interview and documentary series which everyone should go watch. She’s the director of the 2019 documentary Gaza Fights for Freedom and the new documentary Earth’s Greatest Enemy. We’ve got the one and only Francesca Fiorentini, correspondent, comedian, host of the Bituation Room podcast, the former host and head writer of the web series News Broke on AJ Plus, and host of the special Red, White, and Who on MSNBC. And we’ve got the one and only Kat Abu, video creator and TikTok Powerhouse who started her media career at Media Matters for America monitoring dangerous narratives on Fox News, and who now produces video explainers for Mother Jones, Zeteo, and her personal accounts, which have gained tens of millions of views over multiple platforms. Abby, Francesca, Kat, thank you so much for joining us on The Real News Network. I really appreciate it. Kat Abu: Thanks for having us. Francesca Fiorentini: Yeah, woo! There’s a lot of questions I don’t know if we can answer. Kat Abu: I think the three of us can solve everything. That sounds right. Francesca Fiorentini: Yeah, sure, sure. Give us some time. Kat Abu: An hour. Maximillian Alvarez: [Laughs] Listen, man, I got a lot of confidence in this brilliant group, so we’re not going to be able to figure everything out, but we’re going to be able to figure some shit out. And we have so much to learn from the three of you, and I’m so grateful to all of you for being on this stream with us together. And I did want to just give a note to the audience real quick here at the top that we are going to have an audience Q&A section later in the hour. I can’t promise that we’ll be able to get to everyone, but if you’ve got questions for our guests, please put them in the live chat and we’ll get to as many of them as we can at the back end of the hour here. So let’s get rolling. We got a lot to dig into here. Abby, I want to come to you first, but this question’s going to be for everyone. So we’ll roll into Francesca and Kat after Abby. So I want to toss you guys this opening question here. Like I said in the intro, the past week has just been a dizzying avalanche of bad news amplified by a constant doom dump of panicked reactions to that news. So I want to ask, how are you reacting to and processing all of this, and what’s your message to folks out there watching about the reality that we are actually facing with a second Trump administration? And are there specific cabinet appointments or policy changes or political battles that you are especially focused on right now? Abby Martin: Thanks so much for having me, Max. It’s great to be on this panel. I’m a little less shocked than I was in 2016, let’s say. I think I was resigned to the inevitability of a Trump presidency for about two years, ever since I found out Biden was sticking it in and not giving up his seat. I think we all got tricked for the last a hundred days when Kamala was anointed that we actually thought that it wasn’t maybe an inevitability, that Kamala did have a chance at winning. So ultimately, I’m just pissed off that the Democrats failed so abysmally and paved the road for this to happen, because it really does all fall on their shoulders. But I think that when we take a step backward and look at the playing field and Democrats and Republicans and the ruling class here, Wall Street executives and a lot of billionaires and millionaires did resign to that ultimate Trump presidency far long ago, Max, and they already said, Larry Fink from BlackRock, the CEO already said nothing will fundamentally change because at the end of the day, it’s about capital accumulation whether or not you’re a Democrat or Republican. Yes, they may differ on religious zealotry and how much that has infiltrated politics, but ultimately they would much rather have a Trump, have someone who is fascist. Because we already know that, ultimately, it doesn’t matter for them. Their pocketbooks will still be lined and the capital will still be gained. They would ultimately much rather have Trump than someone like a Bernie Sanders. Now, that’s not to discount the fears, the very real trepidation, obviously, from minorities, from trans people, from leftists. Trump ran on a very openly fascist platform where he said he was going to deport pro-Hamas sympathizers while there’s this upswell of pro-Palestine protests against the country.Oobviously the environment is going to be completely gutted. Every last vestige of regulation and protection are going to be thrown out the window. So it’s a very dystopian time that we’re entering into, the fact that Trump has been able to dial into this not only conservative hegemony when you’re looking at mainstream media, because even though the conservatives paint it as the liberal media dominates everything, we know the power, scope, and reach of conservative media, and then he folded in all of the alternative media as well. And so that was a very smart strategy for him. We’re in for a very tough road ahead. And somehow the Democrats failed to such an extreme degree that they even gave Trump an opening to seize on again this populist rhetoric and anti-war rhetoric. So amidst the Gaza genocide subsidizing this on behalf of the Democrats, Trump was able to seize and capture a huge swath of the populists who are rejecting status quoism and antiestablishmentism somehow, even though we’ve already had this man as president for four years and he gave nothing but whatever the ruling class wanted. But here we are again, facing down a second Trump presidency, and it’s going to be a long fight ahead and long road ahead. Two cabinet appointees that I’m especially concerned about, obviously Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, little Marco couldn’t have been a worst pick. When you’re looking at foreign policy, especially Latin America, this guy’s a maniac warhawk who wants to just destroy Cuba and Venezuela, he wants to destroy Iran. I mean, all of these people are China hawks. So even though they might have good rhetoric time, and again on someone like Ukraine, they all want the ultimate prize, which is war with China. And then God damn, this guy Pete, he, Pete Hegseth, sorry, his name is a doozy Secretary of Defense, this Fox News guy. I mean, this guy still supports the Iraq war in 2016. He’s still promoting the Iraq war and defending torture. So it’s a slew of the worst of the worst. Mike Huckabee, the list goes on. It’s just a nightmare. Maximillian Alvarez: You mean the guy with the white nationalist tattoos who’s going to be Secretary of Defense? Yeah, not worried about that at all. Jesus fucking Christ. All right, Francesca, let’s keep the good times rolling with you. How are you processing and responding to this moment? And are there specific kind of appointments, policy changes or political battles where your eyes are especially focused right now? Francesca Fiorentini: I just want to give it up to Abby. That was an amazing roundup and she hit somehow all of the questions, and I super agree with it. And everything she said is just on the money and especially the last part. I just want to pick up on the idea that Trump could endear himself to a very real cry for an end to the weaponizing sending weapons to Israel and end to this genocide, giving some, I mean, complete window dressing. I’ll be the candidate of peace. Oh yes, I’m going to embrace this one Muslim American group in Michigan and all of that. And then turns around and it points all these neocons who are, I mean, I think we’re going to be probably going to war with Iran, I think within a year, if not sooner. It’s incredible the amount of obviously misdirection switch around that he did. But guess what? That’s all you had to do. All you had to do was speak to the very real pain and anger at the status quo, at the status quo of again, genocide. And look, I mean, it’s not necessarily what got him the election, but it sure as hell captivated, captured a moment and he took advantage of it. And so a certain part of the electorate did vote for Trump. Despite everything will be worse in Gaza if you ask me. And yes, there will be a wider war. So I just want to name that the Democrat’s unwillingness to even offer window dressing as to change. It is not that Kamala didn’t say the exact same thing that Biden did, but just a little bit of a hint. Here’s what I would do different. This is how we were going to change on that. That’s important to understand just how unwilling they were to even on a surface level try to appeal to what most people were saying, not just Democrats. And then the other thing that Abby said, look, I wish I had her foresight that two years ago I saw this coming because what’s happening to me? The scene in Memento where he starts to figure out that he’s lost his memory and he’s piecing it all together. That’s what I’m doing with the Biden administration, where you’re like, oh, shit. Not raising the minimum wage. We got fucked relying on the Senate, parliamentarian, giving Joe Manchin everything he wanted, and he still tanked your build back better Bill all the ways, and then him running again. It’s like we should have seen this coming. And even though, yes, it’s eight years since 2016, not a lot has changed, not a lot has changed. And our fight against MAGA and Trumpism and the Republicans writ large should not change. And so it is about, you hear, I’m sorry, but when I hear that they got a trifecta, it actually makes me laugh. It makes me smile because there’s a little bit of me that’s like, good for them, good for them. You know what I mean? They got a vision. It’s fascism. They took over every single court. They got what they wanted. Why? Because they had a plan. So what’s the plan? That’s what we need. What is actually the plan for Democrats to win? And again, I’m in this moment, clearly I’m mad, and I don’t know if in four years there will be a plan that actually will gain, not just gain these voters back, but I think more importantly gain voters who didn’t go out to the polls or didn’t vote for either Kamala Harris or Donald Trump who feel disaffected, who are legitimately disenfranchised in various ways. And so for me, look, there’s too much awfulness to stare directly at. It’s like, don’t look at it all like Trump did at the eclipse. You got to take your own corner, your own peace and fight on that level, whether it’s locally, whether it’s in a community organization, whether it’s you getting involved in something, whether it’s a movie night, documentary month, everyone. I love a good doc. So I’m just like, however you can feel productive, generative and helpful. And hopeful rather than trying to, if you take it all on, I mean you’ll never get out of bed. Maximillian Alvarez: Yeah, the notification fatigue is very real, right? I mean, this is one thing hopefully that we learned from the last Trump administration is that immobilizing people in constant fear with an endless barrage of bad news is part of the strategy by which we become demobilized and easier to defeat. And like Francesca said, you got to give it up to these fascists. They are, at least we can say good planners. So there’s something to learn there. Kat, I want to bring you in here. Same sort of questions. How are you processing this and what are you focusing on right now? Kat Abu: When he won, I thought I expected it, or I at least knew it was a possibility, but I really thought I’d wake up and be ready to go to Mexico. My mom straight up told me, she was like, I will help you move to Mexico. We’re from Texas. So we spent a lot of time down there. She was like, I will be there. I will help you move. I will take the cat. And honestly, I woke up and I was just so energized, ridiculously energized, particularly because of what Francesca said, we need a plan. And I am someone who was as a job. I am immersed in right wing media constantly, which means a, I know Trump’s entire cabinet right now, Pete Hegseth, oh my God, don’t even get me started. But also I think it’s time. You talked about people pointing fingers when you’re pointing fingers to blame, to find someone to say, this wasn’t me, or it was your fault. That’s not productive. But what’s really productive is being able to say, fuck y’all who didn’t listen, who didn’t listen. When I and 20 other people were sleeping outside of the DNC when we tried to play ball just to get a Palestinian American on stage, when I had a super PAC reach out to me and ask me to run an entire pro-Palestine voter initiative over the last month of the election in Michigan and Wisconsin, and my only condition was speaking to Kamala Harris on camera for 10 minutes talking to one Palestinian person, and instead she did a tour with Liz Cheney. So we know what went wrong. And the way that we fix this is we get these people out, they don’t listen, and the only way they will is if we threaten their power. There were so many districts where Democrats didn’t even run a candidate. There were so many districts when the incumbent who had been there for 3, 5, 10 terms didn’t have anyone try to challenge them in the primary because that’s the big issue with the Democratic party, is that it fears dissent. And I think that’s healthy to have dissenters, dissenting supporters in your party. That means that there is freedom of speech. That means that you’re getting different ideas. That means if you are being corrupt, people will call you out. And so what we need to do, like Francesca also said on the local level, but also the state level, the national level is get people in communities to run for every possible office. And anyone who’s watching here and had that inkling in the back of your head and you were like, maybe I could do that. No, that’s insane. You can, especially at the local and state level, you can absolutely do that. Even if you don’t win challenging, that will make them fucking sweat. They are terrified of losing power. But as far as what’s going to happen for the next four years, we don’t know. I find a little bit of solace in the fact that there are so many incompetent buffoons being appointed that they will definitely wreck stuff. But it takes a little bit of competence like a Dick Cheney type maniacal plotting to be able to accomplish everything they want to do. And appointing both Elon Musk and Vivek Ramas Swami to one role for efficiency. Yeah, that’s not going to happen. They’re going to hate each other. And just these egos on the right, especially in these far up positions are just too big to balance with one another. But things will get bad and we don’t know. The best time to challenge authoritarianism is at the start and at the end of that regime. And we are at the start. It’s up to us, especially during the midterms, which are going to come up way faster than you think. Two years is not that long to try to disrupt this while we can. Yeah. Sorry, I’m so pissed off. Maximillian Alvarez: No, let the rage flow baby. That’s why we got all three of you here. We need to channel that shit because if you’re not angry, you’re not paying attention. And I want to, in this sort of second section, I really want to focus in on the work that y’all do in the media and what we can learn from that work. But just a sort of quick, rapid fire run around the table one more time. I want to kind of pick up where, pick up what Kat was putting down there. We should also emphasize that there are weaknesses, critical weaknesses in the MAGA movement in the Trump administration, in the way Trump operates. And I wanted to ask if y’all just kind of had any of those at the top of your mind that you wanted to remind viewers of things where all hope is not lost, all territory is not gone, the struggle needs to continue, but I think Kat hit upon a really important one. What we do know from the first Trump administration is that it was a clown car of clowns coming in, clowns going out. People were in the administration for a week before they ran afoul of Trump and got the boot. I’m fully expecting Elon Musk to outwear his welcome with Trump in the next 10 minutes or something may go wrong there with these two massive egos clashing against each other. So there are pressure points within the MAGA movement in Trump’s administration that we can put pressure on. But I wanted to start with Abby and go back around if there are other sort of weaknesses or areas of struggle that you want to remind folks are still there. We can’t give up on everything here. Abby Martin: Well, it does seem to be curiously of a vehicle for Christian evangelicals, which obviously the first tenure was certainly that. I mean delivering the overturning of Roe v Wade and the moving of the embassy to Jerusalem, that certainly was just giving the Christian evangelicals exactly what they wanted. This one is a little bit more, it seems like stage managed Trump is a total buffoon. He’s like Grandpa Simpson yelling at the clouds. I mean, I don’t know if anyone, I’m sure Kat, you were watching very diligently, the insanity that he was putting out there at some of his rallies. I mean, even his victory speech seemed so lackluster. He didn’t even know what the hell to say. It was like, how is this your victories speech, aren’t you? We Kat Abu: Are going to get some really crazy reaction made soon. Abby Martin: He’s so horrible and he’s lost all of his mojo. He is not the same Trump that ran in 2016, but he is still a narcissist and megalomaniac, and that is to his detriment. So like you said, max, I mean the clashing of egos, the upset that’s certainly going to come with a lot of these appointments and a lot of things are going to come to a head and he is belligerent. He’s a bull in a China shop, and that’s ultimately why the ruling class doesn’t want him as someone as opposed to someone who’s more manageable or someone who’s not as uncouth and belligerent to the rest of the world. But yeah, I think it’s going to be a big opening to just show how incoherent he is and how he doesn’t even have anything cogent to present at all. So there’s a lot of space to ram the truth through. It’s just a matter of how are we going to expose that when the entire media sphere is just locked down by right wing billionaires? Francesca Fiorentini: And I’ll just pick up on that and say, I mean, I think it’s a good question. I think things like subjecting ourselves to Pi Morgan panels, Abby is also, it’s for me, it’s like fun sometimes, but I only do it if I can have a little bit of fun and sort of mock the entire thing. It’s ripe for mockery. I’m a comic, so I thrive on this kind of stuff. That being said, I am so less interested in how we rake up the MAGA billionaires versus how we actually have the best defense, which is a good offense, and how we actually drive more fissure in the democratic side and the liberal side, how we use this moment. A lot of liberals are being radicalized by this moment, and I think it is specifically the left’s job to allow liberals into our fold to let them be radicalized, help them learn, dig deeper, watch some empire files documentaries, watch some news, broke videos get woke for lack of a better term because there are also people, as much as we’re so hyper-focused on who voted for maga, nah man, I’m focused on the people who are disillusioned and rightly so with the Democratic party as it exists, and they are trying to dig deeper, they’re trying to get involved. They realize this is not going to be won by them just getting a sticker and falling out of a coconut tree or whatever it is. So there’s that. I agree that the Trump administration on its own will eat itself alive, but we have to remember that even in effective fascism does still hurt people and separate people. Maine people does give rise to vigilantism and hate crimes. We’re going to see a lot of that. And we already have seen that. I think that child separation happened under Trump’s first term. I think we can expect that and worse. So for me, here’s why I can’t care about the right and their billionaires is because this whole year, this whole year, ever since Biden started campaigning, what have we been doing? Look at how silly they are. Look at how crazy they are. Look at how dumb, look at how weird, look at how corrupt look at them drinking horse dewormer and shitting their pants on the regs. Look at all of this stuff. How undemocratic, how stupid, none of it breaks through. None of it matters if you yourself are not offering real concrete solutions. If you’re doing a piss poor job at selling any concrete solutions or a piss poor job at selling the solutions that you actually did do some of the good things that Biden might’ve done, then I can’t help you. And so me pointing out Orange Man bad, I just brought this segment onto my show, it’s now going to just be an Orange Man bad segment. We talk about all the Trump shit and then we talk about some real stuff. What are we doing? How can we fight back? What are people doing organizing with their unions and their workplaces? That to me is where our energy needs to be. Maximillian Alvarez: Preach this. Kat, you want to hop back in here? Kat Abu: Yeah, I mean, both of y’all are absolutely right. I mean, Abby hit on the head with talking about their oversized egos and Francesca talking about offering another solution besides I think like George HW Bush. Every president who has won since Carter has been a populace whether on the right or left. And the good thing about progressive policies is if you don’t market them like a moron, pretty much every normal person likes them. People hate Obamacare, but they love the a CA. It’s the same thing. And so I think that’s when you’re bringing these people into the fold, that’s an important thing to remember. Instead of immediately attacking progressives or say that’s a pipe dream, why don’t we try to strive to do better? But I think the biggest thing that I think gives me comfort and I think to look out for in the next four years is what happened today, the onion buying Infowars, they are losing their collective minds over this. And it’s because they desperately want to be a part of normal person culture, deeply entrenched culture. Not sure if I’ve done, I’ve watched it for the last three years, the Patriot Awards at Fox. It’s their equivalent of the Academy Awards. And there are like four awards. It’s one year. It was most valuable Patriot, Patriot of the Year, most patriotic, badass. And that was Pete Hef, by the way and the Back of the Blue Award. That’s not a real award show. No one watched that except me. They want to have comics that are lauded and everyone thinks they’re hilarious, and instead you’ve got gut filled. And sure there are a lot of radicalizing podcasts and stuff that are capturing the attention of especially young men, young white men. But as far as our identity of what’s cool, what’s fun, who you want to be around in real life and not online, they simply can’t capture that. They can only do it through a screen or through angry taglines they say on TV that your uncle might believe, but he’ll make sure not to say his true thoughts at Thanksgiving until a couple glasses of wine. And that’s devastating. Then they’ll never get that. And I think exploiting that on top of all of this other action we can take on top of bringing people into the fold on top of running candidates, on top of just resisting complete doom and despair kind of rocks, they’re terrified of that and it makes them so mad that they can’t capture the lightning in a bottle of being a person. Francesca Fiorentini: Oh boy, Kat Abu: That’s so Francesca Fiorentini: True. Maximillian Alvarez: I think that’s all, I mean all three of you beautifully and powerfully put and important things to remember, and I could genuinely talk to you guys for hours and hours, but I know we have a limited time with you, and I want to make sure that in this next round we kind of zero in on the work that you’re doing as media makers, as journalists, as analysts, as powerful voices in this ecosystem. So let’s talk about the media side of things and then to everyone watching, I want to remind you that we are going to have a q and a section at the end of this hour where we want to hear your questions for our guests. So please, if you haven’t already, put your questions in the live chat. So as we’ve already addressed here, corporate media, big tech and this growing network of new media influencers have all played major roles in the rise of Trump and the MAGA movement, and they’re going to continue to shape our political reality as we head into a second Trump administration from Elon Musk buying Twitter and turning it into a cesspit of Trump. Again to influencers like Joe Rogan endorsing Trump the day before the election. The arena of digital media and online politics has shifted over the past eight years. As Francesca said, a lot has stayed the same, but changes have happened. And Abby, you actually went on Rogan’s show again back in the summer, and I want to play that clip for our audience. Let’s roll that appearance from Abby’s on Rogan Abby Martin: A couple years ago. Yeah, back in 2021. Maximillian Alvarez: This is the 20 21 1. Abby Martin: Yeah. Maximillian Alvarez: Okay, pause. Let’s roll that. Speaker 5: When you see the Iron Dome and you’re seeing these rockets being fired out of Palestine and they’re all getting detonated in the air, and then you realize like, oh, this is a kind of crazy situation. One side has this insane technology and the other side is kind of in an open air of prison camp in a way. You can’t go anywhere. You’re kind of stuck. Abby Martin: 25% of American Jews now after the latest onslaught in Gaza believe Israel’s an apartheid state. And that shows you how dramatically the narrative has completely flipped on its head because for the last 20 years, Israel’s been losing control of dictating the narrative. I mean, that was really what they relied on for so long that we’re acting in self-defense, that we’re surrounded by people who hate us and hypothetically will commit genocide against us to basically defend the fact that they are committing defacto genocide in Gaza. That is the erasure of Gaza resident. It’s the erasure of a culture. It’s not just the extermination. That’s according to the, Maximillian Alvarez: The very fact that Abby fricking Martin was speaking the truth about the occupation and Israel’s genocidal war on Palestinians on the most popular podcast in the world is a testament to what you were saying in that very clip, Abby. So what does that say about the media environment that we’re in today and what have you learned navigating that environment that you think folks out there may not be seeing or understanding? And how do we sort of square clips like that? The influence that shows Rogans have their openness to voices like yours and also the Trump endorsement? Abby Martin: My God, there’s so many levels there. I mean, first we need to look at Joe Rogan’s audience, and I think it’s a huge mistake for liberals to write it off just like they have written off Trump supporters as racist, misogynists, and just a MAGA cult entirely. Look, Joe Rogan’s audience is eclectic diverse. I’ve had thousands of people come up to me over the course of the last eight or nine years ever since I was going on his show, telling me that they learned about Palestine for the first time that they became radicalized, that they became a communist based on what I said on his show. So I think it’s a huge mistake for, again, it’s just writing off any semblance of alternative spaces and turning them into conservative pockets. And we saw exactly what happened with Bernie when he went on the Joe Rogan podcast and Joe Rogan endorsed him, and the entire liberal media sphere was up in arms. Everyone was like, recant the endorsement, denounced it. How dare you go on his show and how dare you take this endorsement from him? I mean, it was a huge mistake. And I think that when we’re looking at someone like Kamala Harris, it was a huge mistake for her not to go on Joe Rogan’s platform. Would Joe Rogan have ultimately endorsed Trump by their way? I don’t know, probably. But I think, look, when we’re looking at these huge spaces with tens of millions of people who are captive audiences and we just silo ourselves off and we don’t engage with them, it’s to our own detriment. You look at the liberal media, the corporate media of liberal spaces and liberal dominant narratives, they were painting that the economy was actually fine, the stock market was good. They don’t ever talk about poor working class people. They talk about the middle class, the middle class. So they’re erasing tens of millions of people. 40% of Americans are insecure economically. So yeah, when you’re looking at what was a big driving factor of this election, people’s material conditions and being gaslit and lied to from, so-called Legacy Media, or the term that conservatives have really kind of hijacked to paint what they claim is corporate media hegemony on the liberal side. We know that that’s not the case, but it’s easy to paint it that way when the corporate media by and large is defending the status quo and promoting what we’ve been seeing, the genocide, right? I mean, so it’s crazy and it feels schizophrenic, and I think people are completely detaching themselves from that space. We’re no longer in the position where we’re begging these outlets to cover our struggles fairly or to stop being so biased and one-sided when it comes to US foreign policy. We have to create our own avenues and engage with each other and uplift our voices to build this consensus that we know exists With a large swath of Americans. Unfortunately, to the point of all of you and all of our work, I mean, it is so dominated by conservatives, and it’s so unfortunate because people are so detached from what they’re being told, the media pundits, and they’re basically being funneled into the alt-right pipeline because it’s so overly dominant. And now you see Elon Musk Musk, who’s a total joke. I mean, he bought basically Twitter to just be relevant because the Babylon Bee, I mean, they want to be funny. They want to be culturally significant and relevant, and we’ve seen what he’s done with it. I mean, he bought it under the pretense that it would be somehow because the government was too involved and he’s just become an arm an appendage of the Trump administration. So it’s getting quite scary. It’s getting quite scary. But when look at two networks that allowed someone like me to have voices that were anti-capitalist and anti empire tell AOR in Russia today, and when you have a voice on networks like that, among the only spaces that we’re allowing people like me to talk, the national security state becomes involved and ends up suppressing voices like that. And it just erases leftists like Chris Hedges and Lee Camp and then just silos us off into oblivion. So we’re all scrambling and competing with our own brands and Patreons and podcasts to try to just make a modicum of space that the right wing has just engineered and really dialed in. And I think it’s an incredibly effective strategy, and you cannot under state or discount the effect that Joe Rogan had the effect that folding in RFK Jr and Tulsi and all of these kind of alternative media figures into this umbrella. It’s a big tent, and they pulled everyone into it, and it’s the opposite of what the liberals have done to the left. Maximillian Alvarez: Man. Mic drop shit. So like Francesca, I want to just build on that and come to you because you are quite the influencer yourself, and you’ve got a lot of experience as Abby does, as Kat does, moving between the independent media sphere and the up echelons of corporate or legacy media from M-S-N-B-C and Nat Geo to Fox, right? You’re like a bull shark. You can swim in saltwater and freshwater, right? And perhaps most famously, I don’t know, maybe because he just masochistically loves getting dunked on Piers Morgan has frequently had you on as a guest on his show, PI Morgan Uncensored. So let’s play the next clip of Francesca blasting Morgan on his show for being a hypocrite and a division profiteer Francesca Fiorentini: During a Wednesday episode of Pi Morgan Uncensored. Oh, this is me. Pi Morgan found himself agreeing with a fellow guest named Kat Tim, who had recently wrote a book about why we are so divided in this country and why we need to come together left and and really just talk about the issues and not make everything so polarized. And I for Jessica Fiorentini happened to also be on that panel. And I took issue not with Kat, Tim or her book, which I actually thought was incredibly interesting and yes, much needed because so many of the issues that face this country really do cut across party lines. But I took issue with Pi Morgan who was gushing over Kat and gushing over the book and saying that he agrees that we are way too divided as a nation, and we really need to just listen to each other when this is a man whose bread and butter is made by people screaming at one another, arguing with each other, and he gets rich in the meantime. And here’s what I had to say about that. Take a look. Piers Morgan: I completely agree. I’m a bit like that. I don’t park myself into either the right or left camp. Go Francesca Fiorentini: On. You’re so dishonest, dude. You’re so dishonest though, because all you do on this show is play off social media algorithms to get people to fight. You lead with it in the cold open and you get the click, click clicks. And if you don’t hit a mill, you never ask that person back. You literally play the game. The cat is decrying, but pierce, stop pretending like you think there’s something wrong and we can’t watch Piers Morgan: Francesca. There’s Francesca Fiorentini: One central. Your whole algorithm Piers Morgan: Is Francesca Fiorentini: Based based on it. Your whole model is based on Piers Morgan: It. Francesca, it’s a lovely statement that will get you lots of clicks from your followers, and that’s why you’ve just delivered your little monologue. However, it’s based on I’m here, wait, I’m here on this panel free. You don’t normally get a million views for me, but I still invite you back. So that can’t be true. I do it as an act to charity. I like you. Francesca Fiorentini: I check the sets. I crush, I crush Pierce. Piers Morgan: I like having you on because you’re so annoying. Francesca Fiorentini: Same Maximillian Alvarez: Queen shit. So Francesca, we Francesca Fiorentini: Stand. Maximillian Alvarez: We stand. So what has your experience in these different sides of the media ecosystem taught you about where the power is in that ecosystem? Who and what are we fighting against in this media arena and how do we win? Or at least how do we not lose in that arena? Francesca Fiorentini: We’re fighting liberals. We’re always fighting liberals. I’m sorry. The reason I do peers is because it’s fun. But look at the commenters. They hate me. They think I’m crazy. They think I’m an insane person who supports trans rights, all that. And I just go on there again, as he called out for fun to show those clips to just dunk on him and move on my merry way. I don’t really, sometimes I get real. Sometimes I talk about the billionaire class versus the rest of us, the number of venture capitalists that the Trump administration has supporting it, the David Sachs, the David Horowitz, all these people, the Peter Thiels and whatnot. But for me, it’s about liberal mainstream media. And I think I want to pick up on some things that Abby said as well. I actually think that war and empire have a lot to do with why so many, especially young people don’t have faith in mainstream news. And it’s because of the Iraq war, people like us who came up during the war on terror and completely that mainstream news was nowhere to be found. They were in lockstep with the generals and beating the drums of war. And we got a couple mea culpas here and there, but really nothing. And then since then, the media sphere has proliferated with alternative news, many of it, amazing, a lot of it also disinformation. And then Donald Trump comes in and calls everything fake news and it all, everyone’s sort of discombobulated. But the fact that the media, mainstream news has still not been able to adequately discuss the war machine, the war profiteering, the military industrial complex is just like, I mean, obviously in part because they accept money from these weapons contractors and in some cases are owned by them, but that will forever be the stain that they cannot wipe out and they’re clawing their way back from. And so for me, it’s twofold in terms of how to get the Rogan, the Rogans of the world, and how to get big. And I agree with Abby. You’ve got to find these openings. Look, I disagree with him platforming a lot of white nationalists and spewing a lot of misinformation about trans people. I have people who are talking to me, I don’t know, but these kids are getting these sex changes, and you’re just like, I know you’re listening to Rogan all the time, man. That’s what’s happening. However, who are the people who he will let on the show? And they happen to be, and usually always are people who are anti-establishment. And that I think is the bigger rather than left, right? It’s distrust with big pharma, which can lead to awful things like the RFK, anti-vax movement, in my opinion. But it can also lead to great things like the Medicare for All movement or people who want pharmaceuticals, the drug prices to come down. It can lead to meal mouth. Things like Medicare gets to negotiate on insulin in two years as per Joe Biden. So it’s like not capturing that anti-establishment, not vibe. Movement is how the mainstream news loses every single time to say nothing of the fact that for me, in my career, it’s like I had a special in 2019, right? M-S-N-B-C, they run it in the dead. You guys will love this the last week of December. So it’s the week between Christmas and New Year. Nobody home, nobody watching all the Be hosts were in that. It was very funny. And what happened in 2020, the pandemic Donald and the election cable news did not need deep dive journalism, an hour long report looking into the successes and failures of Obamacare. And that’s on them. And every four years they come around going, why is the electorate so misinformed? You cannot break your own 24 hour news media cycle and actually give a journalist, a real journalist an hour, give them an hour a week to explain something to the many, many millions of people that watch the program. But they can’t do that because they don’t need to. And again, it could be unsafe for their bottom line to say nothing of it would have to be a little bit of an investment. But anyway, one day I’ll be Stanley Tucci traveling Italy and eating my ass off. But until then, situation room is where I’ll be. Maximillian Alvarez: We have the same dream. I just want to be the Mexican version of it. So Kat, I want to bring you back in here because you are doing something that so many of us want to figure out how to do, but can’t. And you’re playing a really critical role in the short form video space on platforms like YouTube, TikTok X and more. And you’re also doing something that none of us would ever want to subject ourselves or our worst enemies to. You are watching, studying and analyzing ungodly amounts of Fox News. So let’s play the next clip from one of Kat’s recent explainer videos. Kat Abu: And finally, Fox News is definitely excited about running the country again through Trump’s TV habits. In fact, they’re already proposing administration officials. Maximillian Alvarez: I expect Speaker 5: Him to appoint someone really strong at the FCC like Hannity. Kat Abu: RFK is going to make us healthy again. Speaker 7: President Trump knows if he needs help securing that border. I’m standing by if he needs help running a deportation operation. I’m standing by. But no former offer has been made. Kat Abu: Oh, by the way, that last guy who is a Fox News contributor and project 2025 author has already been named as Trump’s Borders are cool stuff. Speaker 7: I’m standing by Kat Abu: These people feel like they’re invincible. And with Trump at the helm, they kind of are. But there is one advantage to Fox News. It’s public, which means we know it’s being pumped into Trump’s brain every morning, afternoon, and night. And a tip hand, that is exactly how we can document and call out these authoritarian goals for you, which Mother Jones has been doing well before this and will continue to do so well after. Damn, you cut off my cat. You didn’t show everyone the clip of my cat. Cat wanted high off her ass. Maximillian Alvarez: I wanted to save something. So that folks, I was going to say go watch the rest of that video for a special treat at the end. But yeah, it is. Spoiler alert, it is Cat’s cat. And it is adorable. Kat Abu: She’s so cute. She’s wearing a little watermelon hat. Maximillian Alvarez: Oh my God, I love it. So I want to ask Kat, if you could expand on first the points that you were making in that video. As an expert in this area, how do you see right Wing media, Fox News, especially shaping the politics of Trump, his base and the GOP today, and what does that mean for our fight? And then I also, if I can, I want to ask if you could talk a little bit about your process for how you’re navigating this media environment and what your process is for making and using media to kind of combat the corrupting influence of Rightwing Media. Kat Abu: Yeah, I mean, I’ve talked about this before, but I think the interesting thing about Fox News and my old boss at Media Matters, Andrew Lawrence also, we just say this on repeat, is Roger Ailes created Fox News to support the GOP, but now the GOP exists to support Fox News. And this was really obvious during the Trump administration and when Tucker was on. That’s honestly, personally, the point that I am most annoyed with, just from a petty perspective, is now Fox Fox host are like, oh, we have more power. Again, I want them to have a bad day every day. But now, GOP, senators and Congressmen, when Tucker was on, they used to compete with each other for a five minute slot where they would only get to speak about a minute of the time. And now it’s that again, Trump has a place to call in every morning and rant for 10, 20, 30 minutes at a time. Hannity, his favorite fanboy is out there with a direct line to the president. I mean, when Trump lost in 2020, Hannity literally was tearing up on air at the thought that he wouldn’t be able to call the White House day or night. And as far as right-Wing Media as a whole, I think the big thing is there are all these forms of alternative media. Fox is the, they love to talk about mainstream media. You’re the most popular cable news channel in the country. You are the mainstream media, but that’s not how they see it. But it is the only, it’s the biggest establishment version of conservative media. And so even though a lot of its viewers, it gets a ton of viewers, but that’s because most of them are super old and they’re just sitting in a chair getting scared all day every day, watching from Fox and Friends till Gutfeld, and they’ll die off soon enough. But the influence isn’t really who is watching at that point. It’s twofold. One, it shows what far right narratives are finally okay to say in the mainstream, Tucker used to do this. He was the one that would normalize them. The great replacement theory. The first time he said that on Fox, it was in 2021. And me and my colleagues at Media Matters are watching it, and it was like Red Alert, like all hands on deck. He said, replacement, this is insane. But now you can hear it all the time, not just in Fox, but in the GOP. And then additionally, it’s a place for the GOP to rally around. Once again, they are supporting Fox, not vice versa. Fox is dictating their policy. And if you want to know what’s happening or what’s going to happen in the next day, week, month, year of the Trump administration, watch Fox watch what Jesse Waters is saying. Watch what Sean Hannity is saying. Watch what Laura Ingram is saying, and then the next morning, see what’s being repeated on Fox and Friends, or you don’t have to do that. You can just watch my stuff because I do it for you. Thank Maximillian Alvarez: You for your service. Kat Abu: Of course, of course. I mean, I do miss getting paid a full ass salary with benefits for it, but what’s that? I don’t know anymore. I’m just hoping I don’t get hit by a car. That’s a good plan. Francesca Fiorentini: God Kat Abu: Too real. Francesca Fiorentini: But Kat, I want to pick up something that you said, which is they’re the most mainstream as outlet, but then they say that they’re Kat Abu: Hitting on the anti-establishment thing. Francesca Fiorentini: They’re hitting on the anti-establishment thing. Exactly. It’s like the brand is good for anti-establishment, but you never hear M-S-N-B-C, so their own discredit, they could easily be like, you’re not going to hear this anywhere else, but we’re telling you, you don’t even hear a whiff of that when actually sometimes, not all the time. Sometimes they do do good show. I mean, it was, he’s Kat Abu: Getting people to tell Biden to step down. I mean, the shit I have gotten since October 7th, 2023, I have gotten so much more anti Palestinian, anti-Arab racism than I did growing up as a kid in Texas. But the shit that Democrats were saying to me, or supposed liberals were saying to me when I just said, Hey, Joe Biden didn’t allow primary, and this debate performance is clear that he should step down some of the most vile shit I have ever had in my dms and replies, and I monitor Nazis for a living. Abby Martin: Well, I mean, it’s so emblematic when you look at something like Bill Clinton, the fact that they had to hoist up Bill Clinton who was flying the Lolita Express more than Trump, and instead of putting front and center, Trump was friends with the most notorious pedophile in the country. Holy shit. Isn’t that crazy? They didn’t say one thing because they thought Bill Clinton was too important of an asset to go talk down to Palestinians in Michigan. I mean, you can’t even unpack, say the brain damage going on. A lot Kat Abu: Of people under 22 don’t know who Bill. They would not recognize him on the street who care, honestly, with the way that he looks now, I probably wouldn’t either. He literally looks like the suds episode of SpongeBob. But as far as Francesca Fiorentini: He looks like an Eli Val cartoon. You guys know what he is? Oh my God. He literally, look, he’s turning into an Eli Val cartoon. Kat Abu: It’s so bad Francesca Fiorentini: Navigating Kat Abu: This. Maximillian Alvarez: It’s like a literal visual metaphor of the debate. The Democratic Party. It’s Democratic party it. It’s like, Hey, let’s bust out a decrepit slick Willie and send them to Michigan. That’ll win. Voters over is like he Biden Pelosi, all these people are falling apart as is their ideology. They just won’t let their fingers off the wheel of power until someone like Trump and the Republicans take it from them. Kat Abu: No, and that was so clear at the DNCI was one of the 200 creators that was at the DNC, and they were super accommodating at first. They were like, let us know who you want to talk to. And I had a very detailed proposal of all the surrogates I’d want to talk to, and I was like, I think I’m the only Palestinian creator here with the way that I look for better. It’s shitty that wearing a hijab and having dark hair and dark eyes, even though this is obviously fake, makes people listen to you less. But I was like, if you want a Palestinian to talk to, that’ll make some dude in Iowa not shoot up a Walmart. I’m here. I am here. And they not only after a day of delusion on my part, I was like, oh, it’s clear. I am here as a token, but also so was everyone else. They brought in all of these creators, and there were some that were like, oh, yay, democracy going to the hotties for Harris party and sitting on the JD Vance couch or whatever. But a lot of people, there are great people who do great work and we’re just trying to do their jobs. And then when the Democrats were like, you need to do this, this, and this, they were like, no. And the Democrats were like, wait, what? Even though they marketed this whole thing as the creator convention, as the creator election, and it’s because they fundamentally misunderstand what that is and what actually appeals, especially to young people. It’s icky. Abby Martin: Did Kat Abu: You get kicked out Abby Martin: That wasn in crisis? Kat Abu: No, I didn’t get kicked out, but I spent the night outside with the uncommitted movement, and you had to go to get your credentials. And I was like, well, I can’t do the credentials. You don’t get them after 11:00 AM. And I was like, well, I can’t really leave. And the only good decision they made was not sticking the cops on us or escorting people out for not having their credentials the second day. You had to get them every single day. But no, I did not get kicked out. I know his son was escorted out, but I think that that would’ve been too dicey. They’re like, oh, well, we don’t want to, you guys can stay out here, but we don’t want to put you Francesca Fiorentini: In cuffs or escort. Plus, the headline of Palestinian content creator gets kicked out is not one they want. And necessarily, sorry, I interrupted, but Kat Abu: No, no, no, that’s exactly, it’s what I was trying to say. Maximillian Alvarez: And there was some eyebrow raising shenanigans, to say the least, at the DNC. That was actually where I first met Kat in person was at the uncommitted. I’m there with my camera. I turned, I’m like, oh, that’s Kata boot. So I’m there. And then when I tried to go back in, suddenly the entrance to the United Center is blocked off for the next hour. So Kat Abu: Oh, yeah, they blocked off the front entrance, right? So no one could go out that Maximillian Alvarez: Way. So when the uncommitted sit-ins started, a lot of folks went out. And then curiously, we found that same entrance, which had been opened the whole day was suddenly, you can’t go through here anymore. So it felt like a trap. Anyone who’s going to go out and look at the uncommitted thing, go stay out there. You’re not getting back in, but Francesca Fiorentini: I see. Right, Kat Abu: Right, right, right. Yeah. And also, sorry, this is sort of unrelated. I’d just like to say I went to go see Charlie XCX at the United Center a month, two months ago. There is weird United Center trauma, and Max, if you go back, you’re going to heal it too. Maximillian Alvarez: Oh, Jesus. Yeah. Whenever I go back, it’ll be too soon. That’s for sure. Francesca Fiorentini: Because I thought this was also kind of the biggest latest breaking story before the election was the Epstein stuff and the Michael Wolf tapes revealing that Epstein was his source, and actually Epstein had regular contact with Donald Trump during his first term before he was obviously raided by the FBI and arrested and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, Trump’s FBI. But Abby’s so right on that this would’ve been the story that across the board, many people are interested in terms of, yes, the biggest sex trafficker, one of the, not only that, but also like a billionaire and everything, and all the connections that he had. And so you can imagine this alternate universe, which might not have affected anything, but where Kamala Harris goes to the Joe Rogan podcast, sits down and gets to talk about these Epstein tapes and all this information, and they get to just sort of smoke a bull and think about, did Donald Trump have Epstein killed? And you know what I’m saying that Abby Martin: No, imagine. Instead you have Don Jr. Talking about who’s on the P Did he tape? It’s like, dude, what about your fucking dad, bro? Right, exactly. Exactly. He’s talking about it is so fun to envision an alternate reality that would be so cool. It’s like imagine what would’ve happened. Kat Abu: The Democrats are so good at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Exactly. Just, oh my God, Abby Martin: I so obvious. It’s like capitalism’s in crisis and we’re seeing this Kat Abu: Planet, Abby Martin: It throw built under the bus, not just in the us and people are voting out incumbents as a rejection of whatever their material conditions are. And I absolutely, even though a lot of people are downplaying the Gaza genocide in the Ukraine war as factors in this election, I do not think that you can uncouple the economic conditions and hardships of Americans with the periphery and backdrop of funneling tens of billions of dollars to our foreign policy. I mean to subsidize a genocide. I don’t think that that can be uncoupled for the average person to say, Hey, that doesn’t make sense. Why can’t I pay for bread or eggs at the grocery store? But we have unlimited money to kill babies. So I think that it’s a huge problem, right? And when you have the Democratic party saying Nothing will fundamentally change while the writing is on the wall. I mean, any of us could have predicted what was coming if we just kind of laid it bare and they did not care enough to stop it. Maximillian Alvarez: I think that’s a really powerful point. To cap off the hour here, I want to a, not take liberties with anyone’s time and say that we did ask if you guys could be on until five if you do need to go. Totally understand. It’s been an absolute honor having this conversation with the three of you, I hope can have you back. For those of you who can stay, I wanted to just see if we could do a little overtime here to get to some of the audience questions. Y’all have touched on some of them already, but I wanted to throw up one here about the merit to the argument that the Democrats can be pushed left. I guess it really comes down to what path forward is there in the existing Democratic party. We know that that is not the end all, be all of the political struggle, but in so far as the Democratic Party is part of that struggle, I guess, what would you say to folks about how we should be approaching that strategically and how far we can actually push this party that seems hell bent on going to the right to left? Abby Martin: I want to touch upon that just because I do have to go. I think Kamala’s whole performance and Biden’s whole performance. I mean, we can’t forget that Biden won on a progressive platform, right? Everyone was coat tailing the Bernie Sanders movement because of how enormously popular his brand of progressive populous politics were. And so Biden over the course of his presidency, unfortunately abandoned a lot of that. And then Kamala Harris, nothing will fundamentally change, ran one of the most conservative platforms, abandoned Medicare for all, ban fracking, federal jobs guarantee. I mean, all of those things just made no sense. Why would anyone who’s remotely leaning conservative vote for Diet Coke when you can vote for the real thing? I think at this point, look, I was really energized about Bernie just because of the tens of millions of people that were in the streets mobilizing because I felt it was a revolutionary moment to catalyze the masses. I never believed in electoral politics on a federal level, especially, I’m not saying to discount city council races and local districts, obviously referendums and city council and all those things. Absolutely we need to be investing our energy into seizing power locally. However, investing in two to four years and putting all of your political energy and enthusiasm into federal electoral politics, I think is a dead end. And I think if that’s not apparent now, it sure as hell should be let this election galvanize and radicalize us outside of electoral because the Democrats have perfectly elucidated that they will not lean left. They would rather have fascism than Bernie Sanders populism, right? That’s just social democracy. They would rather have Trump than an FDR platform. So they are going so far, right, because they have no other choice. They have to maintain their capital and power no matter what’s at stake and what’s in the future. So it’s up to us, the tens of millions of people who have been radicalized by the Gaza Genocide, who radicalized by Bernie Sanders, who see the climate change catastrophe on the horizon. It is up to us to build the movement we know is the only thing that has ever pushed politics, left the social movements in the street, the masses that shut down business as usual. That is the only possibility that we have moving forward because the time is urgent. We don’t have the time to wait for a super majority pie in the sky. Oh, maybe. And if one of these freaks on the Supreme Court croaks, no, we don’t have time to wait and waste the time is now. We need to act accordingly and get involved locally with the struggle and with the activism because that’s how we’re going to move mountains. Kat Abu: Hell yeah. Maximillian Alvarez: Hell yeah, sister. Well, I know Abby said she has to go. I just wanted to first just, I don’t know, just have a Jesus moment that was incredible in fire and also just really, really stress to everyone watching. You need to subscribe to the Empire Files YouTube channel. You need to support Abby’s work, her current documentary, her past documentaries, share them with everybody, watch everything that she does. You can see for yourself why her voice is so vital. Abby, thank you so, so much for joining us today. It’s been Abby Martin: A long you guys rock. It was such an honor. I hope to do this way more frequently. She do this like a monthly thing or something. Let’s do it. So good to meet you all girls panel baby. Maximillian Alvarez: Hell yeah. Solidarity says Abby Martin: Bye guys. Bye bye. Kat Abu: Abby, Maximillian Alvarez: Francesca and Kat, if you guys got more, I would hate to follow that act too, but I guess if you have anything else to say, Francesca Fiorentini: I forgot what the question was, but Kat Abu: Yeah, I was entranced. Francesca Fiorentini: I mean, look, I really appreciate Abby’s perspective and her analysis is just spot on and always has been. I am not ready to say that electoral is not going to work. I think that we cannot just take our ball and go home because it didn’t go the way we wanted. I think we have to be players in this and I don’t think that being players means you’re not in the streets. And I don’t think being players means it is the only way. And I think I’m very much sort of let a hundred flowers bloom in, I guess in a MAOIs sense. I don’t know in a nonviolent MAOIs sense, but I do think that we need inside outside strategies. I am not someone who you’re going to hear bashing the squad for not doing enough. I think that there are many, many hurdles and layers to actually getting things over the finish line in Congress. And I think a lot of us have sometimes maybe too simplistic of a view simply because we feel like we elected somebody. They didn’t do the change we wanted. So we’re kind of just like we’re fed up. But I do think that even though biden’s, I mean good God, I’m sure he would like a mulligan on the last year and a half of his presidency. But I do think what Abby said about Joe Biden’s election in and of itself was thanks to the progressive movement, so was Barack Obama’s thanks to a progressive anti-war movement, the absolutely capitalized on not eight years of the war on terror people sick and tired of it. We elected Barack Hussein Obama, the first black president. Are you kidding me? I was under no illusion that he would be really for the working class or actually very progressive, but it was such a radical sea change that I do think we have to be poised for. What is the electorate willing to do when it comes to reacting to what we know will be a failed fascistic government coming from Donald Trump? So the pendulum swings, but let’s, let’s swing it farther and let’s make sure it stays there and let’s break this goddamn grandfather clock of a duopoly. So I am inside out. I’m of both minds. I just feel like you find the place and the space that you feel most effective and we stop putting so much credence into the electoral process, meaning especially on a national level. I just feel like by the time you get to the presidential election, it really is which flavor of warmonger. And yes, I really would like the diet warmonger honestly, because I feel like Kamala Harris and the Democrats were much more pushable. And I know people disagree with me on that, but I think we see that. Look at the Zionists, Trump’s disappointing a bunch of bidens. It’s like they’re nothing but Biden’s and Biden was arguably one of the more Zionist people in his cabinet. So anyway, that’s where I stand on that. I feel like we on the left tend to say, here’s my line, this is what I believe, and if you don’t believe this, then you can go sit over there. So let’s have the same grace and understanding that sometimes we’re like, gee, how did Trump get all these voters? Let’s be kind to one another as well as we forge a path forward and figure out what to do. Kat Abu: Can I just jump in here real quick please. One of the things that I just want to stress to everyone in the world all the time and not just even in the political sense is in general, there are very few consequences for your actions that will genuinely affect you. Whether it’s standing up for a server who someone is yelling at, whether it’s doing that thing that you always wanted to do or whether it’s running for office, speaking up at your town hall, meeting at your local city council meeting, whether it’s trying to mount change in any way. If you feel any inkling to do it, you should do it. I think that we’ve coming back to the anti-establishment stuff, we’ve come to this idea that you have to have all of these ins to get anywhere and that these people in power have some type of extra read, some secret read on the electorate that we don’t have or some secret factor that the rest of us don’t have, but they are just people. They are just as fallible and dumb and weak as all of us, maybe more so, more so more. And anyone that gets into power will probably take on a little bit of that too. And that includes you, me, all of us. That’s just the human condition. But if enough of us actually acted on what we want to do, especially in an age where you can reach so many more people through alternative media, through the TikTok algorithm, through person to person connection that a lot of people are really missing. I’m hosting a women’s club at my apartment this weekend because I read it in a book and I was like, you know what? Why don’t I just do Abby Martin: That? And Kat Abu: Maybe in a different time I would’ve been like, well, probably no one would be interested or whatever. But instead I reached out to some friends and they were like, yes, that sounds like so much fun. So everyone’s bringing a friend. We’re learning how to embroider together and it’s just action. Action is what spurs us forward. And it doesn’t have to be running for office. It doesn’t have to be taking to the streets, just this is going to be a really weird four years at the very least and probably pretty dark. And if you don’t act on what you know is right and what you want yourself or others to do, nothing is going to get done. Francesca Fiorentini: Max is the least I’ve ever heard you speak maybe ever. Kat Abu: I’d also like to apologize for any, I’m not actually DM Abby after this. My wifi is laggy. I’m on my building wifi, so if I interrupt, I’m so sorry. Maximillian Alvarez: You’re Kat Abu: Great. No, you’re fine. Maximillian Alvarez: Y’all have been incredible. I’m sitting here in awe. I’m learning, man. I mean, yeah, I could spout a lot myself, but I mean, y’all have so much insight that we need to hear and I don’t have all the damn answers I need to learn from y’all, just like I hope our audience is learning. And in a way, y’all were already sort of picking up on another audience question that I want to just keep this ball rolling. One of the questions was about how we fight the hate, the vitriol, the trolling, the misinformation on social media that is emboldening people in the MAGA movement. And so I wanted to pose that to y’all as well, but I kind of wanted to pick up on where Kat was talking just now that the answer to that question does not solely exist on your online tactics for engaging people through a screen. I can’t stress enough how important the old meme of go touch grass, go talk to your neighbors. It really matters. I mean, one of the things that I’ve noticed watching my own grandfather dive from Alzheimer’s over eight years since Trump was first elected to now his social world, his physical mobility, everything in his world has shrunk. And that got hyper accelerated with Covid where his social world went to going out to the golf course, meeting friends to those friends dying to his mobility being limited to now being locked to one living room, and the entire connection to the outside world is mediated through the TV in his living room that plays two channels, Fox and OAN. And so I bring that up because I know this man, I love this man. I mean, he is one of the many Trump supporters in my family who I know is not just like the diehard racist and fascist that we like to paint Trump supporters as being, but what I really want to emphasize for people that they can learn from folks like my grandfather and folks in your family, is that people don’t just go gung-ho into fascist politics saying like, yeah, let’s deport all the brown people. That comes way later because people’s politics flow downstream from their perception of the reality they believe they’re living in. When you are being bombarded with these images of what the world looks like outside your window as your connection, your real connection to that world gets smaller and smaller and is all mediated through screens. That’s how you end up with so many Fox News viewers saying, you live in Baltimore. Do you even walk down the street? I won’t ever go to New York City or to Chicago or these places are bedlam. It’s like, that’s nuts. But that’s the reality. They believe they’re living in and Trump’s fascist politics feels like a natural response to this dark world that’s being presented to them. And so going out and countering that misinformation with reality, with real human connection seems to me to be one of the most, if not the most potent antidote to that fearmongering. Francesca Fiorentini: And the same thing with the media just in terms of why do we only sit in diners when it’s an election? You should sit in diners all the time, you know what I mean? You should really talk to people all the time. And this whole wheel, the mainstream news is allowed for the demonization of immigrants as much as they want to clutch their pearls over Donald Trump’s wall or mass deportations. We all watched in 2016 how Donald Trump’s single-handedly moved the Overton window and Jake Tapper helped him just refix over to the right a little bit. Jake Tapper, the whole GOP primary was just, what do you think of Donald Trump’s wall? What do you think of Donald Trump’s wall? What about the wall? How about the wall? It’s like, no, no, no. How about a serious answer to the question of immigration in this country? How about a serious plan? What do you think about the wall? They helped every single step of the way, and they’re going to continue to help when it comes to mass deportations. How many Haitian migrants have they actually platformed on mainstream news? How many times have they talked to, have they gone to, let’s say, Portland and seen the way that decriminalization programs are working in the community? We always make fun of when Jesse Waters or some Fox News hosts will go and be like, isn’t it crazy here? And it’s funny, but who do you actually see doing it from the other side or doing it from a side that doesn’t have an agenda? Just being real with it. It’s like you got to listen. It’s like long form investigative stuff, reveal real news network. Even some Bourdain did that. It’s like people are like, wow, Bourdain is really amazing. You know how he talks to people. You know what I mean? So that’s the other thing is how are we humanizing all of these groups, including ourselves every single day? And there’s just a consensus to not do that because fear really does sell. And so I think I’m more terrified to see what nonprofits, what different organizing left, not left, but liberal entities, which news outlets, who’s going to decide, I don’t want to resist anymore. I’m just going to join. It’s too much for me to resist this fascism. Let’s just join them because that’s easier. I need access and I need money that terrifies me. It is really Kat Abu: Scary. I have to hop off after this, but I think two things on that is one of the big problems at these big companies, like at M-S-N-B-C and CNN and the New York Times and all these big media companies is they have a lot of really good reporters who the leadership straight up will silence their work. It will be written, it will be edited, it will be ready to publish, and then it will just be on the chopping block and no reason will be given. And then oftentimes they’re assigned to a different beat. That is such a problem in our media right now. But also, I think, I grew up conservative in Texas, and I think a lot of people underestimate the power of conservative propaganda. Like you were talking about how people see cities. I have lived full time in New York, DC and Chicago over the last two years. I had two major life changes. So I had to move from DC to New York, New York, to dc, DC to Chicago. Haven’t been stabbed once in any of them, but the way that conservatism was portrayed to me, and granted I wasn’t, my parents were more like the Reagan conservatives, but still, there was so much misinformation that I had to break was like, we’re the responsible party. We are being responsible. If you think our cities, even though you haven’t stepped foot in one in 15 years are being taken over by maniacs, you’re like, well, I’m being the responsible one because for some reason, my brain is now rewired to make me think that certain people love crime. That’s a position that anyone has, But it’s a lot harder, especially older people, to get someone to admit that they’re wrong. No one likes doing that. And I know when I had to realize when I was 16 and we moved to Tucson, for whatever reason, I moved to Tucson halfway through high school. Dallas is where I grew up, was super segregated by income and by race. I had never really been around a poor person before. So many of my friends, Tucson is a very low income city, and so many of my friends at my school couldn’t afford basic things. I had never really experienced that before of someone on a daily basis, someone who I had a real relationship with, and it totally radicalized me. But I had to go through and see all of these things that I thought were truth were wrong, and that feels like shit. You feel like a moron. You’re like, what is my moral compass? It’s not fun. And I look at people like my mom who grew, my grandmother, her mother was a major GOP operative in Texas, so she was right in the middle of it. She grew up with this as a major part of it. And she has reevaluated so many of her views, and I think it takes a lot of bravery and grit. It’s hard to do that. And if you’re looking back when you’re like 40, 50, 60, and you’re like, did I spend this much of my life being wrong, lacking empathy, where I could have given it villainizing people who didn’t deserve it? And so that’s, it’s Francesca Fiorentini: Never too late though. I Kat Abu: Mean, it’s never too late. Francesca Fiorentini: It’s amazing to hear when older people might make this transition. It’s like, yay, it is. Kat Abu: But I think that there’s a lot of people on the left who either grew up in a family that wasn’t really political or was liberal like Obama voters or whatever, and they really underestimate the power of propaganda that gets you there in the first place. And then also how hard it is to change that because you’re trying to break an entire structure of thinking and also have someone admit, I was wrong. Everyone I love was wrong, and I might’ve had some really shitty opinions about ideas. People, places, things, other nouns, and it’s Francesca Fiorentini: Just people, racist is, and calling folks racist or sexist, it isn’t a winning strategy. Even if some of them Kat Abu: Are, if you say something or sexist to me, I will say that. But if it’s just like a guy, Francesca Fiorentini: It doesn’t work, but it’s being able, I mean, it’s the looking past the racism and sexism, like I said, like this four years ago before the election, then you cannot shame Trump. Trump voters. You cannot shame Trump. You cannot shame the Trump administration. Shame doesn’t work for us. Making fun of them is for us. Now, we need it to stay sane because we have to tap in and be like, is this real? Are you real? And I think we’re all doing that, and this is the real news network. So there you go. But that’s for us. It’s not necessarily going to move the broad electorate. That’s just for us to be like, yeah, that was fucking crazy, right? Yeah, that was fucking crazy. Okay, we can laugh at that. Yeah. Yeah, we can fucking laugh at that. Yeah. For us, Kat Abu: I mean, I think I tell people all the time, say, question me if you watch my stuff and you’re like, that doesn’t sound right, question me. Am fallible. Everyone is I could be wrong, or just make sure you have an extra source or two on that. This is not the time to just think anyone is perfect, that anyone can say anything, and it’s the absolute truth. And when it comes to conservatives and on the right, where was my train of thought going on this, I had a point that I was really fired up about, but I don’t know Maximillian Alvarez: If it comes back to, I will just say that one of the reasons that I’ve always gravitated towards your work, Kat, is that I myself as folks in the Real News, no, I grew up deeply conservative as well in Southern California. And for me, the reality breaking thing that got me to start that long process of unlearning all the dumb shit that I believed and acted on was the recession, right? Was this sort of massive market crash. Our family lost everything 12 years ago. I was working in warehouses and factories wondering why the hell I believed in this system that just bailed out all the banks while families mine lost everything. And I was working with ex-cons undocumented folks, trying to make my own paychecks so I could buy dinner like that week. So that forces you to confront a lot of those realities. But as you both said, so well, and as you both and Abby embody so well, we need grit and grace to navigate that and to help others navigate it. And it can be done. We’re living proof of it, but we can testify as people who have made that transition that, like Francesca said, like shaming and berating, even though it may feel morally righteous and good is not going to fucking work. If your goal is to bring folks out of that darkness into the light, finding their way back to love and common humanity and working class struggle, You need grit. Grit and grace. Kat Abu: My point came back to me, and it’s exactly what you’re saying. I clown on conservatives all the time because it’s fun, but I try to only punch up people on Fox who are getting millions of dollars to miss inform you. And even when I talk, I did a video about Rob Schneider’s comedy special, which was abysmal from a comedic perspective. I got to see this. It was a lot of fun. It’s on you, but he, Maximillian Alvarez: Wait, Francesca, can you please have Kat on your show to talk about Kat Abu: That? Oh, yeah, yeah. We need to break it down to sex. Please Rob Schneider’s comedy special on Fox Nation. But I did admit he had a really funny 10 minute bit where he did a Trump impression, but it wasn’t political. He was just talking about his experience with Trump as a person. It could have been about any celebrity. And it was funny. So I admitted it painting anything in a broad stroke. I did a whole thing on Trump Charlottesville comments explaining why he said that Nazis are very fine people, and by doing that, I went through literally minute by minute every single thing he said, I didn’t cut anything out. So anytime a conservative was like, you’re misquoting. I say, watch the whole thing, and you will not believe how many people on the right have come back to me being like either, damn, I still don’t agree with you, but you were right. You didn’t cut anything out or like, oh, wow, I really didn’t understand the full context, and I watched this whole 35 minute video and now I do. And so just doing that instead of straight these people villainize themselves, Francesca Fiorentini: Sure, Kat Abu: If you just give a little bit of grace, no one is right all the time. No one is wrong all the time. We need a baseline for humanity. There is a baseline that if you straight up just see me as a womb on legs, probably, you have to address that on your own. This is not us to handhold you through, but there are a lot of other people who just, they just don’t know anything else. And you can’t blame someone for ignorance if you don’t tell them where to find the knowledge. Francesca Fiorentini: That’s so true. That’s very real. Maximillian Alvarez: I think that is a beautiful, powerful point to end on. I apologize to everyone in the live chat if we didn’t get to your questions, but I think you’ll agree. Kat Abu: Shout out to the two people’s questions we answered. We hope you’re Maximillian Alvarez: Satisfied. Shout out to the big two. I mean, you guys did address a lot of the questions that were asked, even if we didn’t directly pose them, but I think everyone watching will agree this was a feast for the mind and heart, and I think I’m feeling better prepared to head into this darkness, and I’m feeling at least a little more emboldened, emboldened knowing that we’ve got great folks like you, folks like the people watching, folks like the folks at The Real News in the back room right now, making this all happen. Thank you, sisters. Francesca Fiorentini: Thanks for having us. Maximillian Alvarez: We’ve got each other and we can make it. And to everyone watching, I wanted to just ask you to please go support, subscribe to every channel that Kat, Francesca and Abby are on. We need their voices now more than ever. And if you don’t want independent media to go away, you got to support it. So please go support it, share it, send it to folks that you know who you think will want to watch it, anything you can do to help them out. We need that work. We need your support here at The Real News. The overall message is, is that we need you guys to keep going, so please go subscribe to their channels, follow them on any platform that you’re on, and if you can, please donate to the incredible work that they’re doing. Kat, Francesca, and Abby who had to depart 20 minutes ago, it has been a true honor being on this stream with you. Thank you so much, and solidarity from Baltimore. Kat Abu: Likewise. Thank you. Everyone. Go outside. Maximillian Alvarez: Go outside and touch grass for the Real News Network. This is Maximilian Alvarez signing off. Please donate using the button on the side of this video. Share this live stream with your friends, family members, coworkers. Please go to the real news.com/donate and support our work today. It really makes a difference. But more importantly, and most of all, take care of yourselves, take care of each other, solidarity forever.